The Writing and Marketing Show
The Writing and Marketing Show
The World of Literary Agents
If you are looking for a literary agent, are wondering why you should have them, or even what they do, then today's show is perfect. Join me as I chat to Literary Agent Tony Collins about the World of Literary Agents
Hi, and welcome to the writing and Marketing Show brought to you by author Wendy H. Jones. This show does exactly what it says on the tin. It's jam packed with interviews, advice, hints, tips and news to help you with the business of writing. It's all wrapped up in one lively podcast. So it's time to get on with the show. And welcome to Episode 67 of the writing and Marketing Show with author entrepreneur Wendy H. Jones. Well, what's happening in the world today? Well, first of all, today, we're going to be talking about the world of literary agents. And I'm talking to Tony Collins, but more of Tony in a minute. So what is happening in the world while the excitement in Scotland is that yesterday, as I record this, yesterday was Monday, the 26th of April 2021. We opened up a bit, our shops, our rations, our bars, everything opened up yesterday in Scotland, and we were allowed to do a bit more to go around. So yesterday, I went off to the Western route, Resort and Spa. And I was talking to them about our conference for this Scottish association of writers, which happens next year in March. And if you want if you're in Scotland, and you want to know more about the Scottish association of writers, you can do so at our website, which is Scottish association of writers.com. And you can find out about local groups and online groups that you can join. Even if it abroad, you can join some of the groups because they're online. And you can then become a member of the Scottish association of writers and you'll be able to come to next year's conference. And I had a couple of meetings yesterday one with Susan, the events manager at the hotel, who's an amazing, amazing person a big shout out to the events team at the westerwood who do a fantastic job for us every year. I also had a meeting with Susan McVeigh, who's the secretary of the Scottish association of writers and we were looking at next year's conference adjudicators on speakers and workshop workshop leaders. And I can promise you, if we can get the people we are looking for this is going to be a cracking conference next year. So a shout out to them. And a shout out to all members of the Scottish association of writers because you all rock and I'm saying this because I'm the president. That's why I was thru at the western route during the visits. Now what else has been happening? Well, more importantly, and this is really important. The book shops all reopened yesterday as well. So book shops are open all over Scotland now. So guys, please support your local bookshop. I want to give a shout out to some book shops. First of all, I want to give a shout out to Alison Rome who runs the the book house bookshop in Broughty ferry in Dundee and Alison is amazing on the bookshop is absolutely fantastic. It's a really good bookshop. So a shout out to the boot coats in not money fit in bloody fat. It used to be in money, feeders and blotchy fairy No. And please visit give them your support to buy books, of course buy books, because they're well worth supporting. Also, I want to give a shout out to Waterstones in Dundee and the Waterstones staff are amazing. They're so supportive of local authors, all authors, so go and buy some books in Waterstones as well in fact gone buy books in both places because it's well worth supporting book shops. I also want to give a shout out to a bookshop in America to four seasons books in shepherdstown, West Virginia, and I did a couple of book signings there when I was there two years ago. I should have been there last year, but no avail. I should be there this year, but ain't gonna happen. But there's still a fantastic bookshop. They are jam packed with books, including my books, but you can buy books of every genre there. And it's well worth visiting them. So please support your local bookshop where ever you are going and support them. I also want to give a shout out to a Christian bookshop, which I've completely forgotten the name of which is dreadful. But it's the Christian bookshop in Motherwell and it's absolutely fantastic. And it's just off the high street by the church there, so please, support that as well. And if I can remember what the heck The name of this bookshop is between now and the time I stop talking, I will tell you but I did interview the manager two weeks ago for the podcast. So if you Go to Episode Two weeks ago, you'll get the name of the bookshop. So, apologies to the wonderful Andrew Lacey who runs a fantastic bookshop, even if my memory is failing me, because last Thursday was my birthday, and it's a birthday that involves a bus pass. And for those of you who don't know, that means I'm 60. So I was 60 last week, so I forget names, then, hey, I'm sorry. They're still a marvellous bookshop. So what can you do to support me? Well, I love bringing you this show. I do so willingly every week. I love doing it. Although I have to apologise because my voice is becoming more and more hoarse. I had to go to the doctor this morning, I've been referred to the EMT department. And if you listen to the podcasts over the time, you'll realise that I'm getting more and more hoarse, my voice is getting deeper and deeper. So they're investigating at the moment. So apologies for that. But I do love bringing you it, even if it does make me a little bit hoarse. And I love doing it for you every week. But it does take time out of my writing. If you would like to support this time, you can do so by going to patreon.com forward slash Wendy h Jones. And you will be able to support me for just $3 a month, which is the price of a tea or coffee a month. Now I know we're opening up and you're going out and buying tea and coffee again. But if you could spare $3, I would be enormously grateful it would mean that you want the show to continue and that you're enjoying it and finding it useful. And thank you to all my supporters. You are amazing. So what of Tony Tony is not only a lovely, lovely gentleman, but he has spent Tony Collins has spent over 40 years working as a Christian publisher, and has started several implants, including monitor books and online fiction. he reckons that over the course of his career, he has published more than 1400 books. He stepped down from a position with spck at the end of 2019 and has now started his own literary agency. Tony has translated one book co authored one book and written two books of his own. He is married to the novelist and spiritual writer, Penelope Wilcock, and he has so much insight into the literary world. So I'm so excited that I'm able to talk to him today about working or the world of the literary agent. So without further ado, let's get on with the show and hear from Tony. And Hi, Tony. It's lovely to welcome you to the writing and Marketing Show. How are you today?
Tony Collins:Hey, Wendy, nice to be with you. I'm in good form. Thank you in very good form.
Wendy Jones:I'm glad to hear it Now that everything's lifting in the way of lockdown. We're getting out of the house, which is always nice.
Tony Collins:That's right. Yeah. Down here on the south coast. The weather is fine.
Wendy Jones:Oh, it's nice. It's It's better than it is in Scotland, I have to say, it's a miserable old day in Scotland. But never mind. We're not here to talk about the weather. Everybody will be like, Oh, my goodness, we want to hear about, you know how to get a literary agent, and you're talking about the weather. But we can talk about both. So I'm going to go on to my first question, Tony, if you don't mind, I'm going to interrogate I mean interview, you know, sure to say. I always like to start at the beginning. So as the song goes, you know, so what exactly is a literary agent?
Tony Collins:Okay, a literary agent is somebody who is who stands between the author and the publisher, their job is to find the good match between author and publisher, to vet the contract and to negotiate terms, and then to make sure that the publisher is keeping their into the bargain. And so they will, they will monitor sales, they will monitor the payment of advances and royalties. They will make a smooth path for both parties. I mean, you're basically a good literary agent to somebody who makes life easier.
Wendy Jones:We all like life to be easier. And I'm sure you're brilliant. I know you're a brilliant literary agent, and I'm sure you would make life very easy for the authors. I know, I know, you've you've answered you know what a literary agent isn't said, you know, the stand between the author and the publisher, which is a brilliant way of putting it, but are you able to expand on where they sit in the literary landscape because there's so many people involved in publication.
Tony Collins:Okay. Basically, if you think of a commissioning editor as a hunter gatherer then There are hunter gatherers all over the literary landscape, sniffing around looking behind bushes, looking under rocks, looking for the best authors they can find. And when they, I mean, good commissioning agent editors will be people who are working with was complete integrity, who are doing their best for the author. But the trouble is that there are a lot more authors around than there are commissioning editors. And there are far more slots. Sorry, there are far fewer slots than there are authors. And so there is I mean, I've been a commissioning editor for most of my life, I should explain. And so, in a sense, I'm a I'm a gamekeeper turned poacher, what I am trying to do is to ensure that the, that when you whenever a book is taken up by a publisher, then there is somebody in house who is championing the cause of that book. Because at any one time, that publisher of any size is going to have several dozen books going through its processes. And it's very easy for public for authors to get lost in that process. So that the, the use of the marketing doesn't get done the the emails to get answered. The the front part of the function of an agent is to make sure that publisher does what they're meant to do, and to adjust intent. If they if they are accountable to somebody who besides the author, then it's just that much more likely that there will be somebody properly championing the cause of the author in house. Doesn't make sense.
Wendy Jones:Yeah, it makes perfect sense. And I love your analogy, especially the commissioning editors, you know, and I, and you know, I agree that the, the editor, is there, not the editor, sorry, the, the agent is working on behalf of the author and making sure that everything's going smoothly. Because publishers are not, you know, on the whole trying to ignore authors or anything, they're just busy people.
Tony Collins:Yeah,
Wendy Jones:there's someone else that can do that. It's great.
Tony Collins:That's right, I mean, part of the trouble prob em, I mean, you know, when I was a commissioning editor I use when I was working at Lyon Hud on, I used to recommend to et on average, about 100 emails day. Now, some of those were ro tine, but a lot of them eeded specific attention. And s me of them could be very troub esome if you weren't careful. T ere's so many voices in you ears clamouring for attention, ou've got to make sure you'r it's very easy to overlook peop e and to overlook requirement. And I'm finding as a literary gent, that so many, so often, an email is simply met with silenc. And part of the part of the t sk of the agent is to break t rough that word si
Wendy Jones:No, that's, that's another good point, actually. And it brings me on to my next question, really, because a lot of people say to me, you know, because, Wendy, what do I need an agent for? Why should I work with an agent? So why is it important that a writer should work with an agent? Okay.
Tony Collins:First of all, agents are not essential. You don't have to have an agent. The idea is that an agent will will mean, the traditional idea of an agent is that there are hard nosed individual who is trying to get a better deal for the for the author, there is that component to the profession. But a lot of it has to do with actually just making just with building bridges and making sure that things are done, right. I mean, for example, one of the problems such an author is going to faces that they're going to be sent a contract, if they're lucky, with an amazing amount of legal gobbledygook in it. And unless you're familiar with contracts, there's all kinds of pitfalls, for example, I mean, one of the issues is that you will be offered a royalty based on other published price or net receipts. And unless you know, which is which you could be in for you could have been quite badly stung, or your expectations can be quite badly dashed. Yeah. But I mean, there's another dimension to this, which is that if an agent is working, working with the author to try and find out the what helps them to write the best book they can to just help them decide on their trajectory in terms of their writing career to help them face the day got questions that have to be faced. So for example, I mean, I quote, It is often the case that writers are not very good at social media, when do you are a notable exception to this. But I mean, a lot of the the authors I work with, don't have a Facebook account, they don't have an Instagram account, they don't think they, they, they, they avoid publicity like the play because it is, it just can be a social media can be a very busy landscape to be part of. And so one of my tasks here is to actually say to that to authors, listen, discoverability is a big issue for publishers. If your books cannot be discovered, then it is going to be that much harder for the publisher to sell them. And given the tiny margins that publishers work on, and given the instability and churn and mergers and acquisitions that is part of publishing life, it is very unlikely that the publisher is going to be able to afford a huge marketing budget. Therefore, the author has to some extent to embrace the whole task of marketing and publicity. And part of my role as an agent is to help them face that and to help them decide what they need to do.
Wendy Jones:Now that sounds that sounds really good actually. And it's obvious tha we really do need agents, yo know, and that they do work har on behalf of the, the author. S I'm going to ask the questio that everyone listening i waiting for? How does a write find a literary agent? And ho do they approach agents
Tony Collins:Okay. Well, there is actually there's an organisation called the Society of authorizations to which you can find online, and they require sufficiently high fees, and I'm sufficiently new in the agency world with that I haven't yet joined them. But I'm trying to adhere to their principles.
Wendy Jones:Yeah.
Tony Collins:As far as I mean, my own specialism is is in the field of Christian books. And there, there are only one or two agents in the UK specialising in that area. Right. The probably the the, in terms of the general book market, probably the best thing to do is to get hold of a book called for writers and artists, your book, which is published every year, every couple of years by Bloomsbury, and the 2021 volume is now out. There's also a children's writers and artists yearbook, which also comes out every couple of years. And those books not only contain a list of agents, they also contain lists of all publishers, all the major major publishers, with email addresses and telephone numbers and descriptions of what those publishers do. Their large books, the two of them together come to at least at least three inches on my shelf. Gosh. And so they are really worth getting hold off. And your local library will have a copy of the different lists, but they're not. They're not that expensive. It's worth getting yourself.
Wendy Jones:Yeah. And to be honest, there's not that many libraries open at the moment. I know they're starting to reopen. But
Tony Collins:yeah, buy your own copy that Amazon will sell onto.
Wendy Jones:Yeah. Amazon will get it or your bookshop will order it up. Sure. Absolutely. Right. Yes. So once you've got, you know, you're spoken to an agent and you have a contract, and what is the next step?
Tony Collins:Okay. The contract will specify the terms so the advance and the royalties. There will also be some important details like how much you have to pay for books that you buy from your publisher, because many authors wish to do so. They will, the contract will include details such as delivery date, and the number of words. And since it is by no means unknown for authors to miss deadlines on contracts, part of the agent's job then is to help the publisher to get the book out of the author. And then, essentially, I mean, my experience authors vary quite a lot. I mean, since my background is as an editor, I have got quite closely involved in the editing of texts. prior to going to the publisher. But in many, in many cases, the the job of the agent is at this point to sit and sit down in the background as a useful ally and consultant where necessary. And to allow the publishing relationship between the author and the publisher to take to take centre stage and into you, you really need to foster a good relationship between an editor at a publishing house and the author so that there's a degree of trust is developed. And they begin to know her know how each other's minds work. And then, I mean, where as the book nears publication, part of the task will be to make sure that the agent sauce that is part of the task will be to make sure that the metadata of being completed and sort of said that a book is found is easily found on the internet. That the salesman sales job has been done, a bookshops have been approached, the marketing people are up to speed with it, you know, so you, you have a monitoring function. And if you've if you've done your job properly as an agent, then the publisher will be glad to just to keep you in the loop. So that's the they are to the mean unit, because most agents are quite experienced people with a background in this work. I mean, I've published hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of books over the years. Yeah, and I've, I've done most of most of the jobs, other than design that you can have in the publishing world. And that's true of many agents that they've got the people who have cut their teeth on the matter and able to ask the right questions.
Wendy Jones:I didn't realise an agent did quite so much. It's, I'm fascinated by all because, you know, we get a picture of what an agent does. And I didn't realise there was so much going on in the background as well. So I mean, all I really am.
Tony Collins:Bear in mind that you're speaking to an agent to sort of sell his profession.
Wendy Jones:Absolutely. But listen, I always knew that they did more than we ever envisaged. But that's a sign of a good agent, really, because they're doing it all, but they're not bothering you with it. And that's why you need an agent because they do all the things that you need in the background. Yeah. fascinated by this next question, really? How do agents decide which publishing houses to approach?
Tony Collins:Will most agents have a specialism or they in the larger agencies will have a number of agents working for them, and those agents who specialise in a particular market sector. So somebody might be a specialism in teen romance, for example, or science fiction and fantasy, whatever? Yeah. And the, the one part of the job of that agent will be to new, which editors are, are buying or are interested in the field in which they work? Yeah. And so in my case, since I was specialising in Christian books, which has been where they spend most of my working life, yeah, I know, I knew by and among Good, good terms with a number of editors at different publishing houses working in that sector.
Wendy Jones:That's, that's a useful way the fact that they do specialise, so they know the industry in the area in which they work. So it's a very good point, really.
Tony Collins:I'm trying to I mean, what's what's happening is, as far as I'm concerned, when it is that although I've hung out my slate, saying, I'm a specialist in Christian books, what I'm finding is that a number of the authors with whom I'm working, are actually really writing not for the Christian market sector, but for the general market sector. And so I've spent too much or today contacting publishers who are working with in in a particular aspect of children's books, but not in the Christian sector. And they're, I mean, you've you it's, it's a slightly heartbreaking world, but you have to get into it. You know, you get people when publishers respond to or it'll it'll be something like, if you did not hear from us within eight months, you can assume we're not interested.
Wendy Jones:Months heavens.
Tony Collins:Like it that was what I actually received that today. Oh my goodness. So I mean, it You do have to rather plug away at the coalface and gradually, people respond, you know, you, you do get replies and the people that you respond to that who Respond to use such that, you know, you, you've got to get the people to use.
Wendy Jones:Wow, gee, I can't believe it months haven't
Tony Collins:This is the one. I mean, I have to say there's a lot of publishers simply do not apply. Any authors listening to this podcast will recognise this. The reason the way that they manage their inbox is simply by neglecting it. And I have to say that that is it's entirely understandable because I've sat in that seat. But it isn't exactly admirable.
Wendy Jones:Yeah, I can imagine I can see it from both points of view Really? How can? How can agents and writers or authors work best together?
Tony Collins:I think that's okay. When I'm, when I'm considering considering an author's proposal, I'm asking myself, could I sell this book? And that question, could I sell this book is really where the conversation starts? Yeah, because if you're not sure, then there's there's not a future, not a future in the working relationship. Because if you're going to sell a book, you have to sell it with conviction. And an agent is at least in part a salesperson. Any agent will will require of the potential offer a detailed proposal that they complete a fairly detailed and fairly proving proposal form, they will need to submit an extensive sample of their work. And I mean, any agent worth their salt is going to be able to assess pretty quickly whether or not there's a marketplace rulebook. Part of the difficulty, of course, is the is the whole area of of fiction. Because assessing nonfiction is relatively straightforward. It's a reasonably on the whole is reasonably swift job. But assessing novels. I didn't do I didn't. Okay. Any editor who's specialises in fiction is going to start by sniffing the book, you're going to read the first two or three pages. And if it doesn't help them, they're probably unlikely to continue. But you cannot afford as a publisher or as an agent to take on a book without actually novelists without having read the thing in its in its entirety. Because, I mean, I read a lot of novels, and even in in major publisher works, you find details like people's hair colour changes, for example. Or it's evident that somebody's a major character's name changed at some point in the writing of the book and it wasn't brought every instance was picked up. And there can be much more serious instances where the the author steps away from the genre into into which the the they are writing, that can be quite quite disastrous. All of these things are aspects of what an agent and indeed or an editor will be doing. And so part of that part of my job as an agent is to is to be very strange with authors and say to them, I can sell this but only if you do this or X or Y to the book, or I'm sorry, you're welcome to try these following publishers but I'm not going to be able to help you. And so, I thought I find it on the hole easiest to be clear, and if necessary, slightly abrupt with all sources because there's no point in stringing people along.
Wendy Jones:Now, that's good. You don't need to be straight really, because people need to know where they stand. And, and that's important. So I mean, is it anything else at all you feel it's important we should know about literary agents and what they do and how we can work with them.
Tony Collins:I think such part of the issue here is it's about managing expectations. I mean, because I I get quite a lot of emails from, from hope for people who, whose whose ideas about the potential advance, for example, are really quite inflated.
Wendy Jones:Yes.
Tony Collins:So I think that if once once you accept that that agents are, are not workers of the miraculous as a rule, then I think you're on a safe on a fairly safe footing. But equally I think as with all human relationships, it's better to be frank and straightforward and open with people. And to assume that you're working with somebody who has who who has integrity. And I have to say that, you know, virtually all the publishers and agents that I've worked with in the past would be people of whom that would be true.
Wendy Jones:Yeah, absolutely. All the agents and publishers I've met have all been genuinely lovely people. And they're all trying to do the best for the author for the book. And that's what their businesses so yeah, I'm going to change tack completely here because I know you're also an author. So can you tell us about your book?
Tony Collins:Okay, well, to date, in terms of published books, I have translated one book, I've boosted one book and I have written one book. The the translations and boosted books are many years in the past, and I will not spend time in them. But the A few years ago, I walked the Camino de Santiago, which is runs between the primary routes, the commuter rail, the Royal away, runs between the French border and the bernese, and the city of Santiago de Compostela, in northwest Spain, and this was a pilgrimage It was a it's a ritual ritual of 490 miles, gosh, and I walked I walked every step of that journey carrying a 12 kilo rucksack. Which was a wonderful experience. It took me about a month and after much badgering from colleagues at the publishing house, where I worked at the time, I decided I'd have a go at actually writing down but I remembered and saw and tasted and smelled and that people I've met and the sense I'm a Christian, I was walking in pilgrimage I there was a spiritual component to what I was doing. And I I, I had gone out slightly consciously in sources in search of sources of reverence. I wanted to see if, if I put if I put myself in a position where I had to listen to God, whether God would be interested in speaking to me. Yeah. And it was a wonderful, slightly magical, slightly groundbreaking experience. I hugely enjoyed it, I'd like to do it again. And it was, I met so many fascinating people, a number of whom I'm still I'm still in touch with on Facebook. And so taking my god for a walk by, by me by Tony Collins was the book that I wrote, which came out a few years ago with john Hudson.
Wendy Jones:Wow, it sounds like a fabulous book. I want to have to get that really, because it sounds like my coping type of book. I like reading things like that. So my final question for you, because all podcasts have to come to an end at some point. And I know everyone's wanting to know if you're open for submissions as part of it. And then where can they find out more about you and your books?
Tony Collins:Okay. I'm still in the process of developing my own website, and that'll be go live in a few weeks, I hope. But I'm very happy for people to write to me at Tony Collins. agent@gmail.com.
Wendy Jones:Brilliant. And I assume they can get your book anywhere that good books are sold,
Tony Collins:anywhere that good books are sold, and even even less good books on occasion.
Wendy Jones:Thank you very much, Tony. This has been fascinating. I've learned so much about what agents do today. So I'm glad I did this. Because even if it's only me that lemons a lot, then I have learned a lot but I'm sure everybody will. So thank you,
Tony Collins:Wendy all pass you I love your books. And it's been a pleasure to have your company to be part of your company. Well, thank you, all the best with anything else that you're doing. And with being an agent, I hope you find some fabulous books. Thank you.
Wendy Jones:That brings us to he end of another show, it as really good to have you on he show with me today. I'm Wend h Jones. And you can find me at Wendy H jones.com. You can a so find me on Patreon where you an support me for as little as $ a month which is less than he price of a tea or coffee. You go to patreon.com forward sl sh when the H Jones. I'm also w nt to h Jones on Facebook, Twitt r, Instagram and Pinterest. Th nk you for joining me today an I hope you found it both use ul and interesting. Join me n xt week when I will have anot er cracking guest for you. Un il then, have a good week and k ep writing. Keep reading and k ep learn