The Writing and Marketing Show

Book Marketing a Publishers Perspective

December 15, 2021 Wendy H. Jones/Malcolm Down Episode 100
The Writing and Marketing Show
Book Marketing a Publishers Perspective
Show Notes Transcript

This week I continue the series of episodes on marketing as we prepare for a new year. Today I'm speaking to Malcolm Down of Malcolm Down and Sarah Grace Publishing about book marketing and getting a publisher's perspective. What can you expect in the way of marketing from a publisher? Find out now. 

Wendy Jones:

Hi, and welcome to the writing and marketing show brought to you by author Wendy H. Jones. This show does exactly what it says on the tin. it's jam packed with interviews, advice, hints, tips and news to help you with the business of writing. It's all wrapped up in one likely podcast. So it's time to get on with the show. And welcome to the magical 100th episode of the writing and Marketing Show with author entrepreneur, Wendy Jones. And have we got a special show for you. Today I'm going to be talking about promotion and marketing publishers perspective. Now, this is often something I get asked about, you know, how much can I expect a publisher to do what am I expected to do as an author? And I've had people say, oh, I want to publish it, because they'll do all the promotion. Well, we shall find out when we interview, Malcolm down, who is the CEO of Malcolm down unsaid aggressive publishing, but more about more come in a minute. So what's been happening in my life? Well, I'm writing up a storm, I've been setting up promotions. As you know, I'm getting ready for 2022. And I'm excited about what 2022 is going to bring. And this is why I'm talking about marketing promotions. So you can get your 2022 off to a cracking start with better book sales. So if you enjoy the show, I love doing it for you every week, but it does take time out of my writing. If you would like to support the show and support my time, then you can do so by going to patreon.com forward slash Wendy Jones, and supporting me for just $3 a month. And that's a price of a tear coffee per month. And you will let me let me know that you're enjoying the show and you want me to continue on past the 100th episode. And if you don't want to support me on an ongoing basis, you can go to my website and click on Buy me a coffee.com and you can buy me a coffee which just a one off thing if you've enjoyed today's show. So what of Malcolm. Malcolm Down and Sarah Grace Publishing was formed in 2015. We are an independent publisher and home of the Malcolm Down Publishing, Sarah Grace Publishing, and Grace and Down publishing imprints. We publish a variety of genres mainly, but not exclusively, from authors who have a Christian background. We also provide a range of author services to enable unpublished writers to bring their books to the same markets that we serve through our traditional business. malcolm.jpg MALCOLM DOWN Director Malcolm was the publishing manager at Authentic Media for 15 years. where he oversaw the publication of over 400 books and Bibles, including the Authentic Youth Bible. He loves working with authors to help realise their publishing aspirations and see the books they write help readers in their own faith journey. Malcolm is a keen athlete and still runs in a variety of distance and track races.My heavens I take my hat off to him. I have enough trouble trying to keep up with work never mind doing that as well. And but I am sure you will enjoy it. So without further ado, let's get on with the show and hear from Moke. And we have Malcolm with us welcome welcome.

Malcolm Down:

Hi, Wendy. How are you?

Wendy Jones:

I'm very well, I hope you're well. Where are you in the world?

Malcolm Down:

I'm in Stafford in the West Midlands. Oh, in the Midlands, yeah. Sandwich between Wolverhampton and Stoke on Trent just off the M six junction 13

Wendy Jones:

air right. Well, listen being Britain at the moment. We cannot not ask you about the weather. What the heck is the weather like where you are?

Malcolm Down:

It's has been very stormy. But it's just right now it's calmed down a bit. So we've got a respite.

Wendy Jones:

Yeah, we always have to discuss the weather on this podcast. And you know, I was a washing relatives a couple of weeks ago, because they didn't have any electricity. So the roll around my house.

Malcolm Down:

Yeah, we haven't had that problem, fortunately. Well, that's good. And

Wendy Jones:

I'm glad we've got electricity tonight, because it's very helpful when you're recording a podcast. So much as I'd love to discuss the weather all night. And if you're sitting comfortably, we'll get on with the interrogation, I mean, the interview. And I'm really pleased to be doing this actually. Because it's something that comes up a lot when people are speaking to me. And with regards to marketing and promotion, I know what I mean by it as the author, but can you as a publisher, give me an overview of what you think it means?

Malcolm Down:

Yes, certainly. Basically, marketing refers to the overall strategy whereby a book is promoted. So it basically can mean any activity that involves allowing other people to hear and know about the book, and especially the key thing is to try and make it as targeted as possible. So it's so what was marketing kind of refers to the overall picture. You know, marketing is a sort of umbrella term that includes lots of different activities. And obviously, those, those activities can include things like social media posts, book launches, advertising, reviews, endorsements, interviews, book, blog tours, and good old word of mouth, which I think is still the best way to sell it. Even after all these years.

Wendy Jones:

I love that I love it all. But the word of mouth you're absolutely right. And I like the fact that you said that it's targeted when it comes to promotion. And that's a really good point. Because I think, as authors, that's a lot of that's something that we very often forget about the targeting of it. So I'm glad you brought that up. And you're right word of mouth is gold dust, you know, if you're doing a book signing and or you put something out, and someone comes up to you at the book signing and says, oh, so and so recommended, I come and get your book, or you put something up on social media, and somebody says, tag someone else and says, This is the book I was talking about. Yeah, no.

Malcolm Down:

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, absolutely. It's, it's it. I mean, I, I buy books, if other people are personally recommended them to me, I'm more likely to buy a book or even, you know, watch a film or, you know, watch a TV series, if somebody else has seen it and says, You have to watch this, I think, okay, you know, I'm much more gonna get to take that advice than if it's if it's a sort of random advert somewhere. So

Wendy Jones:

yeah, no, I would agree. Totally brilliant. That's a great answer. We've only just got into this. And we've got nuggets of gold already. Marvellous. Now, what as I say, one of the reasons I'm, I wanted to invite you on here as a publisher, is because I, I coach raters and try and help them with things. And one of the things that a lot of people say to me, and I'd heard it said to me time and time again, I want to publish it as I can't be bothered with promotion, the publisher will do all that. What would you say to them?

Malcolm Down:

Well, I'd say two things. The first, the first is, if an author doesn't believe, enough in the book to want to publicise it themselves, then why should the publisher, do you know what I mean? There's a sense in which, you know, an author has to believe in what they've written, otherwise, why would they have written in the first place? And if they don't believe that enough, to be able to jump up and down and say, Look, I've written this book, it's, I'm really believe in what I'm saying, you know, there has to be some sort of internal confidence that makes a publisher say, right, okay, I can see your passion. Let's work alongside you. And let's see what we can do together. And the other, the second thing is, you know, publishers only have a limited marketing budget, they have to pay, they have a lot of fixed costs, variable costs. And, for example, you know, a 500 pound advert in a magazine, you know, that that could be the whole marketing budget for for a book, you know, yeah. And that may not yield any sales. I mean, I, I just advertised in a couple of magazines and spent, you know, that kind of money. And I've had to two orders, you know, so, and the author was delighted that I spent the money on advertising, because that's what they wanted to see. But if it doesn't turn into sales, then I've got to ask myself, could I have spent that 500 pounds in a different way? Could I have, for example, sent, you know, 20 copies to key people who I know would would review it would blog about it would discuss it, you know? So, you know, that budget is infinite? And we can we as publishers have to decide, what is the best way of spending?

Wendy Jones:

Now, that's the really good points, actually. Because yeah, if you don't believe in it yourself, and you know, adverts on I've seen adverts for books on the television recently, how now? What are they getting budgets like that from you know, it's, it's phenomenal amounts of money, and money isn't going to stretch. So you're right, thinking about what you're doing and not putting it into one little thing that's not going to help? Yeah, isn't isn't the best way forward. So that's great, to be honest, you're very polite, Malcolm, because I'd be very tempted to say to an author who said I can't be bothered with promotion. I want the publisher to do it. I'd be saying you might want to rethink your career path. But that's me and you Much nicer than me. So your answer was fabulous, and probably much more helpful. For my listeners to be honest. I know that many publishers now require a marketing plan to be submitted alongside the first three chapters in a synopsis. If what would you expect to see it in a marketing plan? I'm putting you I'm putting you on the spot here. Now. The nitty gritty?

Malcolm Down:

It's an interesting question, because I must be one of those few publishers who don't actually ask for a marketing plan. Gosh, so, but I tell you what we do instead. So what we try and aim to have a more personal approach, we try and get to know what an author is comfortable doing and what they're not comfortable doing. It's really important. I mean, I, I have an author who, when she first, when we first published her first book, she's now done a couple of books with us. She wouldn't do a radio interview, let alone a TV interview, she was fairly introvert, shy, just it wasn't her thing, you know, even though she was quite happy to speak in church on a Sunday morning, and she often, you know, spoke at fairly big gatherings, there was something about radio, we just, we just couldn't, couldn't get through that barrier. So we had to work with her. And we say, well, you know, what are you comfortable doing? And we worked out a strategy based on, on on the author's personality, because not everyone is like you, Wendy, not everyone is extra. You know, there are other people who are very shy. But they will be prepared to do other things, they might want to write short articles, you know, that they can then submit to magazines. So there's a bit more of a sort of, you know, editorial, and those have been very effective. So, yeah, we try and have a sort of more bespoke approach, if you like, rather than just saying, What's your marketing plan? You know?

Wendy Jones:

Yeah, I have to say, when it comes to marketing plans, a lot of authors are like, where do I start? You know, what do I put in?

Malcolm Down:

Because it can scare an author of you. So we say, well, you know, we got any events, bits, because a lot of our authors are Christian leaders. And we say, well, if you've got any events coming up, he's speaking anywhere, you're doing a book launch, are you You know, we'll get we'll try and get you some TV and radio interviews, and that that can be a start. And what we find is that authors have never done TV radio, before we get them to do one interview where we know that we know the interviewers the house really well, because we work with certain programmes. And, and you know, they're very accommodating, they're very welcome. And it kind of gets them started, it kind of gets their confidence levels. And once a competence is there, then they'll very often do more, more interviews, and I've even been known to do what you're doing now. I've done a few interviews with authors myself, and just put them on our social media sites, you know, just to get authors into in get getting authors used to doing that kind of thing.

Wendy Jones:

Yeah, well, that's excellent. I think that's a really good idea. Actually, I've never thought of that. See, I'm learning tonight, I'm learning all sorts of things. And that leads me on to my next question quite beautifully. Really, because you've touched on it a little bit. What should an author expect in the way of marketing from their publisher?

Malcolm Down:

Okay, good question. Well, I can tell you what, what we try and aim to do. Because I don't, I can't really speak for for other publishers, but But what we try and do is that is a is a press release. First and foremost, that press release can take two forms, there's, there's a sort of traditional form where you simply have a press release, and you send it, it's all done by email these days. But yeah, you might send it as an attachment to your, your media list, or, or your shopping list. I mean, we we actually use a we use MailChimp. So every, every month, we do a newsletter, which features all of our new titles. And so, you know, there's there's always a picture of the book, and then some information about the book, and then maybe an endorsement and then the price and the ISBN number. And then and then that that email goes out to, you know, all of the shops that we sell to and all of the media people who we hope will be interested in getting a review copy. So we then do social media posts. I use a platform called HootSuite, which you may have heard of, but I'm a busy man, and it saves me time I can do three social media posts, you know, Twitter feed, Facebook, Instagram, all in one go. It's a kind I've just literally just done one few hours ago today for a new book that's just come out. So that's that. So that's something else that we do review copies. So we've got, you know, Premiere Christianity, you know, woman alive. You know, if there's a magazine that we think has the target reader in mind, you know, so you have to be fairly selective in terms of what you send to which magazine, you know, but so, I mean, you know, a lot of the church denominations, they have their own, you know, magazine, so Baptist times or direction magazine, you know, and for gent for the general market as well. You know, if we've got a story, that's, you know, maybe a biography, oh, female biography about, you know, a life story and incredible life story. You know, we might send it to some of the women's magazines, you know, women's own or, you know, these, they asked me to name them all, but there are lots of women's magazines out there. I know. Yeah. So, so yeah, it's about being targeted. And then we, we have a number of sales reps, who, who, every few months, they, they go to the stores, they go to the buyers, and they asked the person in the store who's responsible for buying the product, you know, show them all of the books that are coming out that month, and then hopefully, they can persuade them to take one of our books. We do free eBook promotions, from time to time, it's very easy to set up on Kindle. And we do you know, we do price promotions as well. So we might offer the book at a special discount for a limited period of time, just to get some interests, you know, so they're the kind of things we would do. Well, I think most publishers would probably do the same for other other authors.

Wendy Jones:

I know you also do television interviews, because I had one. That was quite that was good out. So it's very good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Malcolm Down:

Yeah, we've got some good contacts in, in TV. And, you know, they actually come to us saying, Have you got any authors that we. So that's always a good place to be, and you feel like you're washing their door down if they come to us?

Wendy Jones:

No, that's good. But checking that further, because obviously, as a publisher, you're doing promotion. But I think it's more of a partnership, and the author has to play their part as well. So what would you expect an author to be doing in terms of marketing?

Unknown:

I think when the book first comes out, I think it's always good to do some sort of book launch. And there are a number of reasons for that. One is, it's just great to celebrate the fact that got a book out, because, you know, you got to remember, as you well know that, you know, authors spend a lot of time writing books. And for some authors, it could be, you know, lifelong work. You know, so I think it's a good time to pause, and to and to reflect and to just celebrate the birth, if you like, of that book, and, and what better event to do that with then getting some friends and family around you having a bit of a celebration, you know, and from that, from that celebration, you can make sure you take loads of photographs, which can then be shared on social media, you could invite the local newspaper reporter to come and do a little feature. You know, I know local newspapers are always looking for stories do the same with with local radio. We've talked about social media posts, I mean, I was chatting with an author. Only today, he was asking, you know, you know, the books not due for a week or so what can they be doing now? And I said, Well, it's a three stage strategy, you know, you want to be doing one announcement, you know, where you reveal the cover of the book. And then you know, a few days later, you then do another announcement where you say the book will be available on such and such date. And then you follow it up a few days later with the book is now available. You know, I heard one, marketing guru one once say that, you know, you have to see a book at least seven times before you make a purchase. So, you know, don't ever be shy of posting and reposting because the way especially Facebook control who sees your posts, it could be that they they're only visible to 10% of your followers at any one times. So, you know, the chances are that if you, if you post two or three times, you're increasing the number of people who have seen that post, you know, two or three times, so it's worth worth doing that as many times as you can. And, you know, for not a lot of extra money, you can boost those posts as well, you know, I mean, you know, a lot of authors are reluctant to spend any money on marketing. But you know, you can, if you put a social media post out, and you just let it happen organically, then it might get it might get seen by 50 to 100 people, but if you, if you spend, say 30 quid on boosting that post, that those numbers suddenly increased 2000 2000, even even 5000. And it's, it's basically a numbers game, the more people that see your posts, the more chances that you're actually going to make a sale. What else would we expect the authors to do? We will probably ask them to try and visit their local book shops, it's always good to build relationships with local book shops. And I know, this is something that you do really well and have done well over the years, you know, and that, that pays dividends, as you all know, because they're always asking you back on a to do

Wendy Jones:

list do a good job, because they always seem to want me back.

Malcolm Down:

Well, you've always got something new coming out.

Wendy Jones:

Precisely. a minefield was one year.

Malcolm Down:

Yeah. So and then the other thing, and again, you know, something that you're very good at, is to sort of see what local book festivals there are, you know, and you get in with the organisers, can you get your book on the bookstore? Can you, you know, offer an offer to do a seminar, you know, anything like that, that just gets you your name out there, you know, on the publicity or that sort of thing? Yeah, it all helps. Yeah.

Wendy Jones:

Yeah, now, they're actually good points. They really are. And I just really put you on the spot. No, because I want to just start a little bit here. There are some big book festivals like Edinburgh Book Festival, and things like that, where the publisher actually has to, to apply on behalf of the author, the author can't do that themselves. Yeah. And do you tend to push for things like that? Or do you apply for authors? It's just, it's a question. Not it's, in general,

Malcolm Down:

to be absolutely honest. When they it's not something we've done. In the past. I probably need another person could just seem to the book festival scene and actually find out how it all works. Probably problem properly. So yeah, I mean, I mean, obviously, the last couple of years, there haven't been many, but,

Wendy Jones:

you know, yeah.

Malcolm Down:

So I think, you know, we haven't really done much, because they've not been anything new. But I think now that they're just beginning to start up again, you know, we'll be having a closer look at them in the future.

Wendy Jones:

Yeah, I just wondered, because, you know, I like Oxford Book Festival and Edinburgh Book Festival, things like that. It's, it's for publishers that need to apply on behalf of the author. So I just wondered if that was something you looked at? And, but they're really good answers. I mean, really, the the other thing, I want to add something there about what you could expect the author to be doing in terms of marketing, because there's something else they can do as well, in terms of alongside what the publishers are doing it share what the publishers are doing themselves, because that then makes the reach even further. You know, for example, I know you put I was very lucky, I'm very fortunate, I have to say with you, but you put an advert in, in together magazine for me. And I took a snapshot of that and put it out, I think I was next to somebody really famous in the advert that was probably just what happened. But you know, so I could all look next to someone. So we've got adverts in the same magazine, and thank you to the publishers. So sharing things that you're doing can also increase it.

Malcolm Down:

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And whenever we get, we've just had a magazine arrive yesterday, with three, three book reviews of ours in the first thing I did was exactly what you did. I took a picture of you sent it off to the authors. And you know, as far as I know, that reposting it to should they are following you know,

Wendy Jones:

they'll be excited and they'll have it everywhere. Quite rightly so. Absolutely. So, I know we've alluded to press releases, and how useful Do you actually think press releases are? The reason I'm asking is There's a school of thought that they're no longer as effective as they once were. And I just wondered what your thoughts were on that? Yeah,

Malcolm Down:

I mean, they're a tool in the toolbox. And, you know, some, some tools are used all the time and other tools come out for special occasions, you know, I think, I think, I think what you've got to look at is the role of, of email. Okay, so, email is still a really important way of communicating. Because generally speaking, if you get a personal email from somebody that you know, talking about a new book, then you're gonna open that, I mean, that's the biggest problem is getting someone to open an email. I mean, on our MailChimp campaigns, we have a quite a good, open rate. And I think it's around an average of 60%, you know, when that's good, when people who are in a similar industry to us, you know, sort of down to sort of 30 40% so, so I know, we have quite a good level of engagement, people on my mailing list, it's not perfect, I'd love it to be 100%, we are never going to get 100% You know, and you know what it's like, you get your emails in the morning, and you delete all the things that you think are junk, and sometimes you delete something that you maybe should have opened, but you just wanted to get rid of them all, you know, so it's human nature. But I think, yeah, there's there certainly is, we from time to time, hire in a PR agent, to help us promote titles, which we really think deserve wider exposure to the general market. And I know, she still uses press releases as her number one way of getting because what she she has contacts with all the key journalists of all the key like newspapers, magazines, TV shows, radio shows, you know, at a national level, so I'm talking about, you know, BBC and ITV producers, you know, so when, when those people get an email from her, you know, they trust her because, you know, they've seen her working in the past, they, they know that if she is promoting a particular author, then that author is going to be someone who's well worth into you, you know. And so, yeah, I think, treated in the right way, press release is still really, really important. And I always say to authors, never neglect your email list. Because most most people, if they looked at how many emails they've got, you know, they probably got 500 or so, you know, you just accumulate the data in life in. And so, you know, go through your list, and decide who you think all the people you know, might be interested in buying your book. And then and then you can either blind copy them, or you can, you can MailChimp offer a free service. And you can very quickly put in, you know, those it's not, it's not a lot of people get worried about GDPR, and all this kind of thing. But if, if that person is already in your email list, because they are a personal contact, it's not like a spam or a cold call. So you can quite justifiably put them through a MailChimp programme and then send out emails, you know, to them as a quicker

Wendy Jones:

way of doing Yeah.

Malcolm Down:

But yeah, so I would, I would say, look at your email list. First and foremost.

Wendy Jones:

No, emails are phenomenal. And anybody that doesn't have an email list, they're missing a trick. Because it's literally that in your website are the only ways of directly communicating with customers that you own? Basically? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Malcolm Down:

Although people contact me in all sorts of ways these messenger WhatsApp, yes, after keeping an eye on every

Wendy Jones:

You are a publisher, Malcolm, they will find you. You could be on a Caribbean island and the only person there and they'd get hold of you Caribbean island, wouldn't that be nice? Anyway, I'm going off the I'm going off peace there when I'm talking out to be. So what would be your top three tips to an author when it comes to marketing promotion? I think we've already mentioned one of them.

Malcolm Down:

Email is one of them. Yeah. I think the launch event would be another one. Yeah.And then you know, The social media now I want to expand this a little bit, because there's no point just going on social media and say, Here's my book, please buy it. You've got to give people a reason. Yeah, buy your book. And I often say to authors look, what? What is it about your book that makes other people want to buy it? What felt need? Does it help? What problem does it solve? You know, because it's all it's that features and benefits thing that you often see, advertisers use, you know, we when selling washing machines, or, or whatever, you know, this is, this is our product, this is what these are the features, and this is what it does. And this is what it will do for you, you know, get your shirts, cleaner, or timesaver on it, you know, you know this. So the features and benefits. So what, what are the main things about your book that would then benefit the reader? You know? So that's really important. And it's really important when you're even writing the book.

Wendy Jones:

Yes, absolutely. It's a tad worrying when you think about a lot of my books, they're all their serial killers. What felt?

Malcolm Down:

You know, you could argue that your books are about escapism, yes, absolutely. You take people out of the dreary, yes, day to day mundane lives, and you take them to a different place. Oh, I

Wendy Jones:

I love it. I'm writing it down

Malcolm Down:

in thrilling episodes, and you know, and that, you know, for our mental health, that is actually a really justifiable reason in itself.

Wendy Jones:

Yeah, yeah. No, you're right. Now, my final question really is, could you tell us about your publishing house? And the perennial question when I'm speaking to any publisher, because everybody wants to know, Are you currently accepting submissions?

Malcolm Down:

Right, okay. Well, so I started Malcolm down publishing. In 2015. I was prior to that, I was the publishing manager, authentic media. And prior to that, I was a salesman actually selling books on the road for a company called Thomas Nelson, or Nelson word as it was in. Yeah. So a lot of experience within the publishing industry. And when we when we, so I started a company, and then Sarah Grace, join me, about three or four months later, when she came on an author visit with me, and I didn't know it then. But she, she was dyslexic, and this author, I was going to sue was also dyslexic. And so I just needed, I just needed some help, you know, so she joined me. And, and she now works, part time in the business. And her name is on all of our children's books, and on all of our biographies. But we publish somewhere between 20 and 25 books a year. And we are still accepting submissions. We don't we don't specify, you know, particular genre will will consider any, any genre. But our main genres are biography. Obviously, Christian, children's books, and, and fiction, probably the four main ones. But we've done, you know, business books, we've done sporting books, done a bit of everything over the time. So yeah.

Wendy Jones:

Well, I have to say, I know this wasn't your intent when you went down the route of dyslexic friendly books, but that's actually a really good marketing aspect of your company, because I get people buying Bertie, the Buffalo, and because it's dyslexic friendly. And you know, and I say, well, all of Sara Grace's books are dyslexic friendly. So you may want to take a look at them. Because they, you know, and a lot of people buy it because the Fathers will say, or mothers will say, I'm dyslexic and can't read to my child, but I can read this. Yeah. You know, and people will buy it. So,

Malcolm Down:

yeah, yeah. And you probably heard when Sarah was interviewed that, you know, in her own book journey with grace, she's actually help typography develop a font, especially for people with dyslexia. Yeah. What is it called the grace font? So yeah,

Wendy Jones:

that's phenomenal. Phenomenal. Hey, thank you very much more. Come. This has been an amazing episode. And I've learned Watson, I'm sure my listeners will learn lots as well. So thank you for taking time to join me.

Malcolm Down:

You're very welcome. And be more than happy to answer any questions that any of your listeners might have.

Wendy Jones:

And how can they contact you? They

Malcolm Down:

They can email me on Malcolm, Malcolm down dot code at UK. Yeah, that's probably the best way of getting hold of me.

Wendy Jones:

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You don't want them ringing you up all sorts of odd times. That's right. All right. Well, thank you very much. You're very welcome. Hi. All right. That brings us to the end of another show. It was really good to have you on the show with me today. I'm Wendy H. Jones. And you can find me at Wendy H jones.com. You can also find me on Patreon where you can support me for as little as $3 a month which is less than the price of a tea or coffee. You go to patreon.com forward slash Wendy H Jones. I'm also went to H Jones on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and Pinterest. Thank you for joining me today and I hope you found it both useful and interesting. Join me next week when I will have another cracking guest for you. Until then, have a good week. And keep writing. keep reading and keep learning