There have never been so many opportunities to write for anthologies and to get paid for doing what you love. Today I talk to award winning authors Vonnie Winslow Christ and Kelly A. Harmon about the how's and why's of writing for anthologies. You can find out more about them below.
Pole to Pole Publishing
Vonnie Winslow Crist
Kelly A. Harmon
There have never been so many opportunities to write for anthologies and to get paid for doing what you love. Today I talk to award winning authors Vonnie Winslow Christ and Kelly A. Harmon about the how's and why's of writing for anthologies. You can find out more about them below.
Pole to Pole Publishing
Vonnie Winslow Crist
Kelly A. Harmon
Hi, and welcome to the writing and marketing show brought to you by author Wendy H. Jones. This show does exactly what it says on the tin. it's jam packed with interviews, advice, hints, tips and news to help you with the business of writing. It's all wrapped up in one lively podcast, so it's time to get on with the show. And welcome to episode 146 of the writing and Marketing Show with author entrepreneur, Wendy Jones. It's a pleasure to have you join me again. And this week, I'm going to be talking to two lovely ladies Vani Winslow Crist, and Kelly Harmon. And we're going to be talking about writing for anthologies and how you can get paid to do so. So an important episode this week, and it's a fabulous episode as well. I'll keep the introduction brief, because we really do want to hear from these ladies. And it's a full episode today. So what have I been up to? Well, I haven't been well for the last couple of weeks, but I've got over my sore throat, I'm feeling bouncy. I'm busy editing I'm busy writing on I'm having a wonderful time as an author, as always, I've been doing book signings, and I thought that maybe I wouldn't sell as many books because there's a bit of an economic crisis in the UK at the moment. But it would appear that people are still buying books, they're buying books themselves or buying books for for Christmas. So it's a great time for books really. And I've also been buying books. As always, I went into a bookshop yesterday and came home with three books, and went into a bookshop today and came home with two. So I've managed to buy five books, so people are still buying books, which is fantastic. So before we get on with the show, I would like to say that I love having you here every week. It's an absolute pleasure to bring you the podcast, but it does take time out of my writing. If you would like to support this time, you can do so by going to patreon.com forward slash Wendy H Jones. And you can support me for the price of a cup of coffee a week, which is about $3 a week. And I would be very grateful and it would mean that you are enjoying the show and want me to continue with it. If you can't do it on an ongoing basis because I know our money can be a little bit tight at the moment. Then you can just go to my website, Wendy jones.com. Click on buy me a coffee and just buy me a one off coffee. And again, I would be very grateful it would help me no end. So what are Vani and Kelly? Well, firstly, we will talk about Vani Winslow crest. Very talented lady born in the Year of the Dragon Vani Winslow crest is author of award winning short stories, poems and books. An active member of the horror Writers Association, Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers Association, Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators and National League of American pen women. She taught creative writing for the Maryland State Arts Council for 10 years. Beneath raven's wing is winner of the International Edgar Allan Poe festival Saturday visitor Award and a finalist for the Imagine award, the enchanted target as a Compton crook Award finalist and many writers Maryland Writers Association Book Award winner both our light and the greener forest are a festival of word short story collection award winners. The greener forest the intern chanted Duggar, and I will light would have voted among the top 10 Books for Young Adults in the peony readers poll. As an illustrator, she's had over 1000 Illustrations published in books and magazines and calendars. She is an avid JRR Tolkien and CS Lewis fun and a firm believer in the magical world that surrounds us. A Clover hunters find so many fallen leaf clover she keeps them in jars. Vaughn is quite fond of Harry Potter and Hogwarts The Hunger Games, A Song of Ice and Fire Star Wars Star Trek and everything fairy was I say what a multitalented lady and now Kelly Harmon. Kelly Harmon used to write truthful, honest stories about authors and thespian senators and statement state movie stars and murderers. Now she writes lies which is invalid, infinitely more satisfying, but lacks the convenience of doorstep delivery. She is an award winning journalist and author and a member of Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America. a Baltimore native she writes the Charm City darkness series, which includes a novel stoned in Charm City, a favour for a friend and a blue collar proposition. Her science fiction and fantasy stories can be found in many anthologies, including triangulation, dark glass hellebore and Rue, deep cuts, mayhem, manage and misery and others. So without further ado, let's get on with the show and hear from both Vani and Kelly and we A voting Kelly with us. Welcome ladies. How are you today?
Kelly A. Harmon:Pretty Good morning doing great.
Wendy Jones:It's morning where you are. It's afternoon where I am. So that tells us along with your accent you're not in Dundee in Scotland. So where are you ladies?
Vonnie Winslow Crist:I'm in Jarrettsville, Maryland, and it's foggy and cloudy. We have actually good Scottish weather here.
Wendy Jones:Oh, awesome. And what about you, Kelly?
Kelly A. Harmon:I'm also in Maryland about a two hour drive from Vonnie. Maybe not so much, but just about.
Wendy Jones:Yeah. Okay, so your quite close to each other really? You know, in Scotland we'd drive anywhere in Scotland. So, two hours is nothing here. You know, I'm sure it's the same in the States.
Kelly A. Harmon:I'll take a road trip and go anywhere for any length of time.
Wendy Jones:Awesome. Come to Scotland. Ladies come to Scotland.
Vonnie Winslow Crist:I've been there. I love it. I'd love to come back.
Kelly A. Harmon:It's such an easy invitation. That's so easy to take your onto.
Wendy Jones:Yeah, probably everybody in the world is now going to take me up on it as well. Because I've just done a podcast, I'll be getting people saying hey, I'd like a holiday. But you'd be very welcome. Very welcome. So are you ready to be interrogated? I mean, interviewed, interviewed.
Vonnie Winslow Crist:Oh, dear. Yes, we're I'm ready to be interviewed.
Wendy Jones:Right. So I've got my questions up and ready. So we're ready and raring to go. So my first question, so we're all on the same page. We all feel we know what an ontology is. But do we actually know what specifically makes a book and ontology?
Kelly A. Harmon:It's really very simple. It's a group of stories published by multiple authors in one volume.
Vonnie Winslow Crist:So it's a collection basically, that an editor or more than one editor will select from many submissions from various writers. So it's not one writer. It'll be many writers and usually their thematic.
Wendy Jones:Brilliant, that sounds excellent. We all know where we are now. And that's always a good thing I have to say. Because half the time I don't know where I am. Now No, are aware of who I am. I do know when it comes to anthologies. I know you've both written extensively for anthologies, I would like each of you to tell us about your own unique experience. We can start with either of you. I know you know each other well.
Kelly A. Harmon:Okay, well, this is Kelly, for your listeners. Vani. And I read for a lot of anthologies, and we have some pretty interesting stories that happened to us along the way. And my favourite to tell is that I had a story that I had written previously for an anthology and it was it was declined. And then I tried to sell it multiple times, like through multiple years, I think the story may have been rejected 30 or more times. So then, all I did was change the title of it and send it off to a British anthology. And it was snapped up in a day. So it just goes to show you that sending stories to anthologies, you just have to get it before the right editor or maybe make a small change like a title. And all will be well.
Wendy Jones:That's a fabulous example seriously, like, all you needed to do was make the title different. And somebody snapped it up. That is fantastic. And what about yourself Vani?
Vonnie Winslow Crist:Well, I think one of the more unique things that I do because I right now I think there's over 200 anthologies with my stories in them. And I know some people think when they write a story, it's written in stone, not me. I will go look at a story. And if it hasn't been placed somewhere, think about well, there's an anthology looking for work, oh, gosh, I don't know, maybe work set in a forest. And I look at a story I have. And I think well, can I change it? Can I put it in a forest. And I'll do that and send it off. And sometimes it will be accepted because the story is still really a fine story. It just needed that little change. And I've done that often. I do it all the time. And in the most recent book. I had. I have out right now. Shiver scares and goosebumps. There are 27 little tails in there. And they're all stories that I had written for other places for drabbles, which are 100 word stories or small flash fictions. And I just went in and changed things around and made them appropriate for younger readers. And there you go. So I think one thing with anthologies, your story is not written in stone sometimes you need to reexamine it and revised a little bit and find a home for it that way.
Wendy Jones:That's brilliant, 200 stories in anthologies, I'm in awe. I thought I was doing well because I've got about five. My goodness That's impressive.
Vonnie Winslow Crist:Of don't be too impressed. It's just persistence. That's all it is. That's
Wendy Jones:a lot of persistence. But it just goes to show I've got the right people on here to talk about right now for anthology. So that is great. So my next question, why would a writer or an author want to write for anthologies?
Kelly A. Harmon:Oh, there's so many reasons why people might want to write for an ologies. The first is to increase your visibility. When you write for an anthology, you get into a table of contents with many, many different authors. And there will be fans of those authors. So if you are in a anthology with authors that you don't presently associate with or know, or what have you, then their fans will come and find you. So it can build your own fan base. And that way, it also gives you new ideas to right as you're searching those market listings, you will find ideas and inspiration among what other editors want for their stories. And it stretches your skills, and it gives you an opportunity to work with multiple authors.
Vonnie Winslow Crist:I'm for me a couple that I can think of. It's a good way if you're in a critique group, for members to get an idea to work on a new story, and discuss it. And hopefully for more than one, hopefully everyone's submit to an anthology can be used by educators, they can come up with the themes, from anthologies for new writing assignments. And you work on your basic writing skills, your practice cover letter writing submission skills. And it's like, it's just a really good way to interact with a lot of different editors, a lot of different publishers a lot of different writers. So it's as a writer, it's an excellent skill development.
Wendy Jones:Hey, they're all really good ideas, actually. Yeah, I mean, to be honest, I was always the sort of person who was like, I'm not entirely sure I can do short stories. And then when I started doing them and flash fiction, I thought, well, actually, I ca do it. You know, we get stuck in a niche. And from what you're saying, it's expanding what you're doing, expanding your reach, expanding your repertoire, expanding your skills. Great. I love it.
Vonnie Winslow Crist:I think that's one of the best things is the expanding because the themes can push you into areas, you maybe never thought about writing. Maybe you see an interesting anthology, but you're gonna have to write a story about seafaring. And you've never really thought about it. But an idea comes with it pushes you as a writer. And I think that's an important thing for all of us.
Wendy Jones:Yeah, that's true, you know, you can get it can push you in a different direction. I mean, I'm still not entirely sure I might be would be pitching to a fantasy on because I want to start. But it is a way of expanding what you're writing. And at least trying out, even if you never pitch that story, because you don't think that it's got the word needs at that point, it may come in useful one day, as you say. So if one of my listeners wants to start writing for anthologies, what is their starting point?
Vonnie Winslow Crist:Well, I think the starting point for writing - this is Vonnie again - the starting point for writing, I think, is to research your markets to find something that you is asking for submissions, because that's you already know that they're looking for something and find something you're interested in writing the anthology that might be out there, and there are literally dozens looking for materials all the time. And there might be one ghost stories, well, maybe ghost stories aren't your thing. So you take a pass on that one, and you go a little further and there's one looking for stories about animals. And so you kind of look at the markets, find something you are interested in writing, and then you write, I think that the big thing you need to do is basically right, it's the same with anything else. But use the different themes as inspiration as the sort of jumpstart to get you writing a story. And like they said there are dozens of them out there right now and there'll be some you'll you'll pass by you're not interested in them. That's fine. You don't have to write for every anthology. Find the one that you're interested in. Good tip.
Wendy Jones:Have you got anything to add to that Kelly or do you think has pretty much been covered?
Kelly A. Harmon:I think that well okay, so that hasn't covered as far as market listings is concerned. But for in a writers group or if you know, other writers, they may know of anthologies that aren't listed yet or may not be listed because they are because the editors feel that they they will fill quickly after just telling a few people. So you can always look at your your group Go and see if there's anything available that might not be listed elsewhere.
Vonnie Winslow Crist:And I'll add to that networking, because she's in it within a group. It's a small networking group. But as when we went to conference where we met you, there were plenty of networking opportunities. And sometimes when you're talking to other writers, other editors, other publishers at a conference, or Gosh, at at a presentation of any sort, there'll be announcements or people be talking about well, so and so's looking for material, listen network, because there's a lot of opportunities out there for folks.
Wendy Jones:Yeah, it's true, actually. Because my I mean, I, as I say, I'm in anthologies, but I've got an even bigger interest in anthologies since listening to your panel at the conference. And that's all to do with networking, you know, with being there meeting people, and building up connections. So, so true, really? Got a question. This might even be a particularly British question. So you might not know the answer. But many anthologies, and as I say, it's a lot of them in Britain expect you to write for free, what are your thoughts on that? I'm not very fond of the word free unless I'm getting something free.
Kelly A. Harmon:We believe now, you absolutely should be paid. You know, for your efforts, you need to get some compensation, even if it's only a couple of copies of the anthology. You know, when when you're first starting out in anthologies, you may only find low paying anthologies, you might not be paid at the pro rates, although we both endorsed starting at the pro rate, you know, if you have a story and you and you wrote it, and it's really good, and it meets the expectations of an editor, for somebody who's paying, you know, a certain amount of high amount for for a professional rated story, send your story there do not, you know, self edit, do not self reject. And then, and then work your story down the line from highest paying markets to lowest paying markets. And one thing you don't want to do is don't fall into the exposure trap. There are a lot of editors who feel like, well, we're publishing you. So the exposure is what you get for writing for us? Well, I think I can say from experience that when you when you're writing for somebody who's offering you only exposure, you're not going to get very much exposure. And a good portion of the reason for that is people who are paying good money to write to authors for good stories are getting their money to pay for their stories through advertising through the circulation of their magazines through the sales of their books, and they have that money to pay you. Somebody who doesn't have the circulation, the advertising, etc, and doesn't have the money to pay, you will also not have the connections to expose you to larger markets. So don't fall into that trap.
Vonnie Winslow Crist:And I'm going to add to that there. There are exceptions. And actually, one of the ones I did recently was a UK publication. And that would be the charity anthologies. And we suggest we encourage you to use reprints. It's not always something you can do. But we highly encourage reprints. And that way, basically, it's a donation. If you if you give a story to an anthology that's been published for charity, you are basically donating and of course, you want to make sure to retain your rights, but nonetheless, you're donating. I personally did one for it was for brain problems, brain diseases, and it was from the UK. And I did it with a story and I did an honour and memory of a dear friend who just died of brain cancer. So by doing that, I honoured my friend and sent of course, a copy to her family and she was fair, they were very pleased with that. But you can do that with charities. But you do look at as a donation, do not look at it as a money making. You might get some exposure, it's unlikely it's going to be a lot so you'd be very careful about doing things for free. It is your job to take writing as a job work at it and work on your as a profession. Well, you don't ask your doctor to treat you for free. So you just have to look at it as a profession and and ask for at least some compensation.
Wendy Jones:Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I've just been at the supermarket and funnily enough, they expect me to pay them for the shopping. I expect people to pay for the writing. As we're talking about money and I mean, we don't often talk about money as writers and I think that's one of the reasons that we expect to do everything for free but you know, because we don't bring it up, but as we're talking about money, how much money would one expect to be paid for writing for an anthology?
Vonnie Winslow Crist:Well, I'll begin the answer here. I think there are different rates that are paid semi pro, and I'm going to use American money mostly because I'm mostly familiar with that. But one cent a word. So if you if you only have 100 word story, that's only going to be$1. But if you have 1000 word story, it's $10. And it goes up from there, that will be kind of your low end rate. And it moves up to professional rate and professional is usually eight to 10 cents. And so if you talk about 10 cents a word, then you can see where it begins to accumulate. And there are markets that pay more, but that's kind of your eight to 10 cents is professional. And from one to eight, there's a lot of in between. And the other way, sometimes they'll pay you is a flat fee, we're all our stories, no matter what their length are going to be $25 Or maybe they're going to be, you know, 20 pounds or whatever, they'll set a flat rate. So you know, when you send your story, no matter its length, that it's going to be paid this amount of money, should you be accepted. And I think the trick to remember in there is whatever they're paying you for, what kind of rights are they taking? And that becomes important if they're archival rights or first rights I Kelly, I think you're better with rights.
Kelly A. Harmon:Yeah, when you sell a story, your your story has more earning potential when it's never been published before. So we call that first rights. So you want to hold out for the most money you can when you're selling first rites, and then with reprints, you know, you can take take what you can get for reprints. I've sold. I've sold reprints actually for more money than I got the first time around. But then I've sold reprints for 10 bucks. The nice thing about reprints is the rights are, are not restricted. And so you can sell, for example, the same story like I have one of my stories that three times in the same year to three different anthologies. So if reprint rights are not exclusive, but the one thing you, you definitely don't want to do is sell all rights to a story. And there are some magazines out there, some professional magazines, what comes to light highlights, cricket, these are some children's things in the US. They buy all rights from you, which means when you sell the story to them, it's no longer your story. And this is problematic. If you write something that has a character you've created or world that you've created, because then that world in that character is no longer yours. And the problem with selling all rights is it's it's very attractive, they pay much more money $1 were $2, or were 1000s of dollars for a short story. So it's easy to say, Oh, yes, I'll take $5,000 for that story. But then you know, 10 years later, when you want to write a novel with that character, it's you can't. So you want to be very careful about the kinds of rights that you licence or sell when you submit a short story.
Vonnie Winslow Crist:And in now add not only the idea of, you know, writing the novel, perhaps based on the story, but a lot of short story writers do accumulate a certain number of published stories, you know, maybe you'll have 20 published stories, and you begin to think about a collection of your own stories. And I've had several collections. And it was important that I retained the rights. So I could include my own stories in a book. And if you do the all rights, or if they keep your rights for a long period of time, you lose the ability to use your own work. I mean, where will be be if Tolkien had sold off Middle Earth with a short story, he needed that for his work. And so you have to think about that. Maybe you're not talking, but you might want to use that material. So that's just really important to consider.
Wendy Jones:Can I just ask a further question about rights really, as we're talking about it anyway. I've got the rights to a short story. The anthology is being stopped after Christmas, the end of the year, it was only ever planned to be till the end of the year, and then it's coming off sale. It's a Christmas anthology. So I've obviously got the rights because it's not on sale anywhere. But if you keep the rights and it's already in an anthology, can you still put it in a different anthology, if it's the anthology still on sale? Yes.
Vonnie Winslow Crist:Yes, absolutley. You'll look at the contract or you look at the however you've agreed the agreement that you have, and how long they retain their use of the rights usually it's a one time situation Question. Usually it'll be maybe from when it's first published for three months, six months, maybe a year. If that goes out of print, you know, double check, make sure you have rights. So like I said, Yes, you can have because I have stories that are in four or five anthologies right now, at the same time. And because it's a reprint, they all knew from the beginning, and you just you just are very clear, when you send reprints out that it's been used and where it was first published and the information about the reprint. But most editors don't care. And they'll put in their directions. If they don't want reprints, they'll put their first rights only, though you're kind of okay on that.
Kelly A. Harmon:Just Just to clarify, just because your story has been published in an anthology that continues to be sold, doesn't mean you no longer have those rights. The the person who is publishing the anthology more than likely has taken first rights for a limited number of months or years, or sometimes never, we've seen some contracts lately, where the the editor has taken the right the first rights to publish, but then the rights immediately revert to the author, however, the editor retains the single right to keep that story in the anthology in its entirety, and can sell it in perpetuity. And that so that they for, for some, for some publishers can either continue to send your royalties. Or they can continue to, you know, make money off that anthology themselves. But that's just it's usually an assumed right. Although pull the poll puts that in their contracts now that we will continue to sell the anthology even after you get your rights back. And so don't be mistaken that if you sell your story, and the book continues to be published, that you no longer can sell it again, you can, it all depends on how the contract is written. And if somebody takes your rights to publish in perpetuity, you don't want that contract.
Wendy Jones:Not at all. I mean, I would advise anyone listening to this, and if they're in the UK, to send the contract to the society of authors, if they're a member, and they will vet it. And then you'll find out what they're asking for.
Kelly A. Harmon:Always know your rights. In the book that Ronnie and I have written, we consider the chapter on rights, the most important chapter there is, you should always know what you're giving up for what you're getting, when you licence a story, and that's what you're really doing. You're licencing a story for a certain amount of time, you're not really selling the story, right.
Wendy Jones:I know, we've touched on this already about finding markets, but I mean, we've, we've said how you can find markets, but also is there any sites or anything you can go to Are there any particular, you know, areas that you can look at, to find to find markets for anthologies? Well,
Kelly A. Harmon:I think, for me, my favourite, it's called
Vonnie Winslow Crist:That's great advice, actually really the submission grinder. And it's http://thegrinder.diabolicalplots.com It's in our book. If you if you happen to write horror The Horror Tree is an excellent source, another one Ralan. And it's just ralan.com. He has a lot of information for perspective writers. These are that these are free, these are free sites. The reason I liked the submission grinder, you can put in there what you want to submit, you can put in there fiction, or poetry, and you can put in there the length and the rights and the response time and all kinds of information, even the theme. And though then it will generate places looking for work. And then you'll be able to look at the list and say, Okay, this place is going to respond in six weeks, somewhere else might not respond for six months. And you'll have to say, Alright, do I want to wait six months for a little more money? Or do I want to get an answer in six weeks or maybe it's two good. You know, I'm going to be taking all these in later and weeks. So you kind of look at that and you and you plug it in. There are also some paid market listings. I know duotrope And is one and that's duotrope.com and there are many others out there. Facebook is also a really interesting place. If you put in either submissions or open submissions or that kind of thing and do a search engine. You'll find a lot of places that are looking for submissions. There are a number that are very active in speculative fantasy, science fiction horror. areas, but they're also ones if you put in their, you know, submission anthology or open anthologies or something like that, you will come up with some groups. And there'll be information on that. And then once again, when you kind of begin to do that, you'll see a lot of people who put up links to other sites that are constantly offering opportunities. So there's plenty of things out there that you can access. And it's just a matter of doing your research. And there are plenty of places and to be honest, I don't know how you even submit to all the places that are open. trying to find places, then I'll have to spend the next 20 years writing short stories. But I know my listeners will find this extremely helpful. And I know you both edit anthology books, what's the process you go through from putting out the call for submissions to complete in the anthology?
Kelly A. Harmon:Oh, it's it's a it's a quick process, is it quick, it's quick to select, maybe we, we wait, we put out this submission call and we give a due date when all the stories are due, you know, it might be six weeks, it might be two months, it might be you know, a little longer for that. And then we wait for the stories to come in. And inevitably, they come in immediately because someone will have a story that matches our theme right away. And Vonnie and I will read the stories individually. And we have a an editorial meeting, sometimes once a week, sometimes twice a week, and we will review the stories. And we'll give our opinions and then we'll decide whether or not we want to accept the story or reject the story. And or sometimes we want to keep the story because we're not sure the yeses and noes are usually very easy. It's the maybes, that, that that causes some real heartbreak. Our process is to reject or accept immediately. So within a week or two, after we talk and discuss some some anthologies, we'll wait for all the stories to be collected that will read them all at once, and then they will reject them all at once. But we don't like to do that we like to read and and decide on things right away. Because the stories that we accept are in them in themselves, creating a story like it's it's a book of short stories, but the way you puzzle piece them together or set up the table of contents speaks its own story. And, and so while we're reading, we're looking for stories that that match what we come up with. And I know that this is all kind of nebulous, because we don't really have an idea of what story we want to tell until the stories come in. You know, and we, we might put out a call for something and we get this super super story that we just have to use, but it's out there. And so everything else sort of has to lead up to that story. So then we then we begin looking for stories that more meet the theme than when we started. So it's the maybes at the end, where we're really sitting on the fence that take the longest time to decide. And then once all that's done, we send out the final rejections. And then we start working with the editors we've explored with the writers we've accepted. And we'll send them a contract. And we'll we'll do some light editing. We believe that heavy editing is not what you do to a writer, you don't want to lose their voice, you don't want to lose how they say things. So we do some light editing for maybe some grammar, maybe some punctuation. And then we make sure that the author agrees, because we never want to step on any toes. And and then if they agree, we publish them in the book, at the end, if they don't agree there have been a case or two, where authors do not want to make a single change to a story. And if we can't come to an agreement, then we just released the story and move on to the next one.
Vonnie Winslow Crist:But it is their right. They want to say now I don't want I don't want anything change that is there, right? We don't hold it against them. But it has happened it'll probably happen again. And it just a word to writers. If it's just minor stuff, just be agreeable, you can always put it back to the original version later. It'd be better to be included in an anthology than not.
Wendy Jones:Now, I would agree with that really, I mean, life's too short to be arguing about minor stuff. You know, it's if you're getting into an anthology and you only want minor changes, Hey, make the changes you'll get into the anthology you'll be published that's like a win win to me. So what sort of stories give the writer an edge when submitting
Vonnie Winslow Crist:tough while I think I'm going to take this and and kind of you know There's a lot of information and it's all kind of overlapping. But I think the big thing is you need to follow directions. It sounds so simple, but follow the directions follow what they're asking for, and stick to the theme. But you also want to be kind of unique in your approach to that theme. So if the theme we actually did an anthology with the theme was towers. And when you think of towers, a lot of people the first thing they thought of was Rapunzel. And that's fabulous. We did want a Rapunzel story, but we only wanted one Rapunzel story. So you want to think outside the box. And when someone sent us a story about a tower at a circus? Well, gosh, that was the only one we got like that. So that had the ability to get in the anthology. And actually, in our, in the book that we have writing for anthologies that just came out, there's actually an anthology submission ideas sheet. And what and this is actually how I really work and and Kelly's works this way also. But when you see a theme, and I'll just take cats was another theme that we did. And if you hear the word cats, when you think of a theme, well, then you begin to make a list of theme ideas. Well, witch's cat, and we got one of those stories. And there might be a shifter that changes from person to cat. Well, we did get a cat shifter story. And you just kind of make a list of the different cat ideas. But what do you want to do is go down your list. You don't want to pick the most common just like in the tower you don't want to pick Rapunzel because you know you're going to compete for that one Rapunzel slot with 30 other writers maybe you don't want to pick another tower maybe sleeping beauties tower you maybe you don't want to pick that because a lot of people might think sleeping beauties tower. Now no one sent us a clock tower? Well, gosh, with Big Ben, maybe in UK somebody would have. And that would have been unique because no one sent us a clock tower. So you want to
Kelly A. Harmon:So now we we wait for clock tower story. And we do yes.
Vonnie Winslow Crist:But if the idea is to think of whatever your theme is, and find something at the edge of the theme, don't go for your first idea, because it's probably everybody's first idea. But make that list and kind of pick something more unusual. Now I have found in my own time, sometimes I'm too far out there. But I'll find another place for it. And it'll be fine. You know, it's not a waste of writing time. I'll find another place.
Wendy Jones:Yeah, great ideas. I mean, I can think of millions of towers and none of them are in America, or Rapunzel or anything. We can't move for towers in Scotland. There are towers everywhere. We love a tower. We love a castle. Heavens. It's a good job. That one's already out because you'd know what I was sending you before. I'd be like, well, that's Wendy. It's come from Scotland.
Vonnie Winslow Crist:We've had submissions and have published writers from all across the world. So you know, we've been very lucky. We've had a very diverse group of writers for the different anthologies that we've edited together. And some of them are award winning, some of them are brand new. So the experience doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to get in. It's the best stories that come in. And if you're working at your craft or writing, you can write the best story.
Wendy Jones:Yeah, that's great. So, have you any tips for for my listeners to they could give to their submission that final polish, and it would lead to an exception. Exceptions. Oh, heavens. I can't speak this morning, this afternoon. What day is it? Who am I?
Vonnie Winslow Crist:Well for acceptances and exceptional stories. What you want to do what you want to do, as far as Polish, I think it's the same polish you apply to any writing project. Go in there. Don't use just spellcheck. Go ahead and use your spellcheck. But use your eyeballs. Look for spelling mistakes, look for grammar, get those correct, presented in the manner that they have asked for that the publisher, each publisher will tell you just what they want. So if they want single spaced, make it single space, if they want to double space, make it double space. And as far as the paragraph indent, there's been a big push of late not to use tabs. And there's a function in all your word processing programmes that you can make an automatic paragraph indent. So that seems to be what's preferred. And I think it has to do with the electronic formatting, and so you want to do exactly what they wanted you, you were making your story as good as you can. And you don't want to give any editor or publisher a reason to reject it. And so the easy stuff, do it you don't want. Now maybe in the case of Kelly and I, when we work for Pole to Pole, we wouldn't perhaps reject because you put a single space instead of double. But there are editors who might say, Don't give anyone an excuse. So polish it as you would your best report for school. And hopefully, you've written a really sound story, but go in there and make it like you're making it for your English teacher in high school, like all the all the polish and do a good job with the actual structure of the story and that kind of stuff. Have an eyelid? Let me add.
Kelly A. Harmon:When we when we send out our calls for submissions, we generally have a long list of things we won't accept. And those are the things you really need to pay attention to if you don't want an immediate rejection. For example, when we were doing the cat anthology, we said explicitly No torture of cats, no maiming, no harming, no nothing. And yet, I would say a third of the stories that we got for that anthology had cat torture in them. Those were immediate rejections. So the other thing we don't like is profanity. Now, we'll, we'll take some profanity, but we don't want you know, major, major F bombs everywhere. And the reason for that is we want our, our anthologies to be, I guess, friendly to all readers to the general audience, we do want to get our books into schools for you know, summer reading and things like that. And you can't do that with with lots of profanity in them. So case in point, one of the stories that we received was was a super story. But every other word was an F bomb in the dialogue. And we asked the, we asked the author to clean that up, and they couldn't. Which, which speaks to a couple of things. First, there was really no dialogue in this story, it was all profanity. But in the end, we had to let that story go, just because it couldn't be cleaned up enough. You know, to take it. So so look at that laundry list of things that that are game changers, as far as the anthology is concerned, and that'll give you a leg up to
Vonnie Winslow Crist:that and with another comment on profanity, excessive profanity to an editor looks like you're a weak writer. Because your vocabulary is limited. You know, it profanity has its impact when it's used once or twice, totally loses its impact. And as for both the reader, and in the case, you know, your editor is your first reader, and they're looking at this and they're, they're thinking, well, this isn't a strong writer. And in this particular instance, we asked someone, can they write it without profanity, and they were unable to do so. So it kind of confirmed to us this was a real weak writer. So I said, when you when you look at that, that is just a matter of vocabulary if you use the same word, if it was effervescent, and you used it 50 times in a story, believe me, your reader would not be paying any mind what the first couple of paragraphs, so it's the same thing with profanity, its impact is lost immediately and it just becomes lazy writer. And as far as that goes, and I'm trying to think of any other tips that would work for writing, I think follow the what we don't want is important follow what we do want is important and be unique in your approach to the theme because usually these themes, as I said, the uniqueness of a story, even if it's got other flaws, we will work multiple out for Kellyanne I will work with writers if it's a really a unique, you know, beginnings of a good story. Now some places want things to arrive on their desk ready to just put in the magazine or put in the anthology. But some editors are willing to work with you. so unique is probably their strongest Tip Be unique.
Wendy Jones:Be unique. I like it. Oh now my brain is spinning with unique idea. Now. I'm going to jot down every unique idea. So, I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm sure my listeners are as well. So, out of all of that, what would be your top three tips to anybody wanting to write for anthologies. You can have three each if you can't just say three between you I don't want any arguments to start. Okay.
Kelly A. Harmon:We've said so much already.
Vonnie Winslow Crist:We're gonna lean towards redundant. But I think the way you know if you want to be published, research your market, follow the directions, write a good solid story and submit it. It's that easy. Kelly, may add to that
Kelly A. Harmon:I can add on that I can think of especially for us submit early, because we, we will we reject and accept as we as we accept as we see the stories rolling in. Not every anthology does that. But for us submitting early gives you an edge because if 10 People have written Rapunzel stories, we're going to take the first one, that's good. And then, you know, we we've had to turn down it's really super stories. Oh, and it's heartbreaking. When you get a story that's better than one you've already accepted. But now you can't take it, because you've already accepted one with the same theme. But it happens. And so for us, at least, you know get that story in earlier rather than later.
Unknown:And we're not unique in that we that. I think probably at least 50% read as the Open Reading period is going on there reading the whole time, because you will get before it's even close you can get acceptances and rejections so you know the reading the whole time.
Wendy Jones:Excellent, excellent tips. I'm going to add one in here because I completely forgot to add it. Don't worry, don't worry, you'll know the answer. Okay, I can guarantee you will know the answer on the tip of your tongue. I know you've recently put out a book about writing anthologies. Can you tell us about it?
Vonnie Winslow Crist:I'll go first and I Kelly finish up. Since we've edited nine anthologies together. And both of us had prior editing experience. We thought, you know, people are constantly asking us about writing for anthologies. And from both sides of the editor's desk we were able to speak as both of us. Right? We've submitted we've been accepted. We've been rejected, sad truth. And on the other side of the desk, as editors we've seen what comes in and why we take things and how you put together an anthology. So I think from our experience is why we chose to write the book and share that information that we've learned. Kelly, want to add?
Kelly A. Harmon:Yes, the book is available now in electronic format, from several retailers. And in the print, the print publication is coming out soon. So that should be available. Maybe by the end of November.
Wendy Jones:Just in time for everybody to get it for Christmas.
Kelly A. Harmon:perhaps a little sooner than that. I think. Yeah, it's running through its paces now.
Wendy Jones:Excellent. Well, I have to say I've downloaded it. I pre ordered it when you said about it in your talk in America. And I was on Amazon as you were speaking ordering it.
Kelly A. Harmon:Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Wendy Jones:You're welcome. Okay, I've started reading it, but I haven't quite finished it yet.
Kelly A. Harmon:Well I have to tell you that the print version has some bonus information and some some writing prompts. But I'm going to add that I think to the electronic version, because it was an afterthought when we started looking at how the print version was going to lay out. So if you have downloaded it already download it again in the next couple of weeks, and you'll have the writing prompts available to
Wendy Jones:excellent. That's what we like to hear. So we're coming towards an end now. So can you each tell my listeners about your own books, and not all 200 of them? volunteer to teach.
Kelly A. Harmon:I can start I write mostly urban fantasy and dark fantasy and horror. So my books my series is called the Charm City darkness series. And it's an urban fantasy that takes place in Baltimore where I grew up. And so that's available now there are four books in the series, the fifth should be out next year sometime. And other than that you can catch catch my short stories and various anthologies around them around the world. Just like Vonnie
Vonnie Winslow Crist:Yeah, for me, I'm not satisfied with one thing I have to do 20 So I have a kids book from long ago Leprechaun Cake and Other Tales, a couple of collections of award winning poetry. And I have four collections of short stories rthat were in various anthologies and then collected thematically. So, four of those and I have a young adult novel, The Enchanted Dagger. And I'm excited to say I think finally, the second in the series, yay is coming out next year. And hopefully the third one won't be too far behind it. And then the most recent book, Shivers, Tears, and Goosebumps just came out. And that is 27 little stories that are appropriate for middle grade, young adult and up. And then I drew illustrations with each of them. And some of them are what are called jumpscares, which they've got, you know, gotcha. And you can kind of scare the little kid at the end. So they're great for you know, around a campfire or fireplace or Halloween, or anytime bedtime for that kind of thing. And I'll be have a second volume to follow next year, in late spring. It'll be coming out, though, and the rest of them yeah, I'm in all kinds of anthologies and magazines and all that kind of stuff, though. And I think the next one that will appear will actually be in Spain, in Catalan language there. So I'm going to have to put a translator on to see if they translated it well, that's all I can say.
Wendy Jones:My your multitalented ladies. I'm in awe. It was absolutely my pleasure to have you here today. But my final question, Where Can my listeners find out more about you your books, your anthologies, anything else?
Kelly A. Harmon:This is Kelly, I have a website, kellyaharmon.com. It's updated infrequently. So you'll find some information there. On the on our anthologies and things you can go to poletopolepublishing.com. And you'll find Vonnie's novels there and my novels as well.
Vonnie Winslow Crist:And for me, this is Vonnie, it's vonniewinslowcrist.com. and my website is terribly out of date. But I swear I'm going to get it updated, as well, I always say, and the two of the story collections, and a science fiction, which I forgot to mention, a science fiction adventure novella, and the the novel series, you can get those foldable, publishing.com. And the cool thing about that if you go to poll the poll, you can access not only places like Amazon, which do carry our books, but also a lot of other places, Kobo and Barnes and Noble and on and on. So there's lots of places that you can access. If you go to bolt bolt for those books. My other books, obviously, you're gonna have to go to Amazon or somewhere else. But you know, pull the pull is really a good source because you have lots of different formats you can access
Wendy Jones:Well, thank you very much, ladies. It's been an absolute pleasure having you both here on the show today. Thank you.
Kelly A. Harmon:Thank you for having us.
Vonnie Winslow Crist:Thanks, Wendy. We really appreciate the opportunity. It was it was lovely to meet you in the States.
Wendy Jones:Oh, yeah. It was lovely to meet both of you. You made me feel so welcome. Thank you. All right. Well, thank you. And I hope you enjoy the rest of your day.
Vonnie Winslow Crist:And likewise, that you enjoy yours and hopefully the sun will shine in Scotland today. Yeah. All right. Sorry about that.
Wendy Jones:That brings us to the end of another show. It was really good to have you on the show with me today. I'm Wendy H Jones. And you can find me at Wendy H jones.com. You can also find me on Patreon where you can support me for as little as $3 a month which is less than the price of a tea or coffee. You go to patreon.com forward slash Wendy H Jones. I'm also went to H Jones on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and Pinterest. Thank you for joining me today and I hope you found it both useful and interesting. Join me next week when I will have another cracking guest for you. Until then, have a good week. And keep writing keep reading and keep learning