Today I am chatting to award winning Cover Designer, Jessica Bell about the process of designing books and how the cover designer and author can work together.
Today I am chatting to award winning Cover Designer, Jessica Bell about the process of designing books and how the cover designer and author can work together.
Hi, and welcome to the writing and marketing show brought to you by author Wendy H. Jones. This show does exactly what it says on the tin. it's jam packed with interviews, advice, hints, tips and news to help you with the business of writing. It's all wrapped up in one lively podcast. So it's time to get on with the show. And welcome to episode 144 of the writing and Marketing Show with author entrepreneur Wendy Jones, what a wild ride is being because as you listen to this, I will just have returned from my trip to the states. And I mean, literally just have returned 24 hours. I'll be back. If that. So I will tell you all about it in next week's episode, rather than telling you about it in this week's episode, I might have a few more things to say about it. But I'll also it means that I'll be a bit more straight ahead, as they say. So it's a pleasure to have you join me as always, today, I'm going to be talking to Jessica bell of Jessica Bell designs, a very talented lady. And we're going to be talking about cover design. And I think that's a really important topic for us oil covers can make or break a book. I certainly judge books by their covers. If I don't like the cover, I won't look any further. So cover design is an important topic. I've covered it before. But I think it's important that we cover it again. And as we speak, Jessica will just have had a brand new book come out the day before. And it is called can you make the title bigger the chemistry of book cover design. And I can tell you I've had an arc of it and it is a book that is well worth grabbing. So I'm looking forward to interviewing Jessica, before the interviewer and introduce her I would just like to say it's a pleasure to bring you this show. I do so willingly every week. It does take time out of my writing if you would like to. If you would like to support that time, then you can do so by going to patreon.com forward slash Wendy H Jones that's pa t ar e o n forward slash Wendy H Jones and you can support me for just $3 a month for as little as $3 a month which is the price of tea of coffee. And I would be very grateful it would support my time it would support me as a writer, and it would know that you like the show and want me to continue. So what of Jessica Jessica began her career as a graphic designer when she self published her first book as an author, a poetry collection called twisted velvet chains back in 2011. Being the type of person that has 100% believes in the phrase if there's a will there's a way she embarked on a self taught design journey. One because she was penniless and too because she's always loved the creative challenge. Very soon after her design debut, she's started designing covers for author friends as favours she didn't charge back then as it was just a fun way to make use of her creative energy until one of her friends told her she had talent and that she should start a business. She took her advice and since then has designed hundreds of covers for indie, traditional and hybrid authors, many of which have hit bestseller lists and won awards. A few have even graced the shelves of WH Smiths at Heathrow Airport. Being an author herself she fully understands the need to be able to incorporate your vision into your book cover. She allows you to do this while simultaneously hitting the right target audience, nailing a professional design and adding a bit of artistic flair. That is why before she gets started, she will have you fill in a very detailed client questionnaire that provides you with all the information she needs to give you exactly what you want, sometimes without you even knowing you wanted it. In various other parallel universes She is also an award winning author, writing and publishing coach and singer songwriter. In addition to having published a memoir, four novels, three poetry collections and her best selling writing in a nutshell series, she has been featured in a variety of publications and ABC Radio National shows such as Writer's Digest Publishers Weekly, The Guardian, wife, martyrs and poetica. So without further ado, let's get on with the show. And hear from the extremely talented Jessica bell. And we have Jessica with us welcome Jessica.
Jessica Bell:Thank you for having me, Wendy.
Wendy Jones:Oh, it's absolutely my pleasure. Now, where are you in the world? At the moment
Jessica Bell:in Athens, Greece. I've been living here for the last 20 years, but I'm actually from Australia.
Wendy Jones:I was gonna say that's not a Greek accent. So we're a real mixture today. We've got Greece we've got Scottish and we've got Australian all in the room together. Such a bad joke. Quite frankly. Are you sitting comfortably? Oh, nice and relaxed and cool and ready for your interview?
Jessica Bell:Yeah, I'm at my desk. So that's pretty normal for me.
Wendy Jones:Excellent. So we'll get on with the interview if you're while the interrogation or the interview depending on what side of it you're looking at, really? Okay. And I'm very excited to be interviewing you, because I've known you a while. And we actually met properly at London book fair as well. So,
Jessica Bell:yeah, quite a few years ago, wasn't that? Oh, thatwas five years ago, I think. Yeah.
Wendy Jones:Or something like that. Six years ago. It was a long time ago anyway. Yeah. Excellent. Well, today, we're going to be talking all things book cover design, which I'm very excited about because book covers I love them. I love looking at colours. So I'm going to start with a question. I don't often ask this one. I usually start with, you know, what, what is and carry on with that. But really, truly, we all know what book cover design is. But what got you into book cover design?
Jessica Bell:Well, it's a bit of a funny story, actually. Because during my last year of high school, despite being quite adamant that I'd become a rock star, I had a strange obsession with graphic design. But because I was terrible at math, and failed my graphic design class, I didn't end up pursuing it. Because the school put a huge emphasis on graphic design leading into a career as an architect for some reason. And all I wanted to do was be creative. They basically told me to sign up for art class. So in the meantime, my music was going strong, but my grades weren't perfect. I was getting all A's and B's in English and craft subjects and mostly deeds and maths and science. Those days actually, didn't even allow me to get into my first shirt choice of university which was professional writing at Deakin University and I had to settle for an art course at Latrobe. So I studied English, played music, then fell in love with a boy in Greece and moved here leaving behind everything I'd achieved music wise, when I turned 22. He's long gone. So the responsibility of being an adult in a foreign country wasn't easy at all. So many of my first years were spent earning a living working in bars and restaurants. But by the time I turned 25, I landed a job at a publishing company as the editor of English language teaching books, where I learned the ins and outs of editing, publishing and eventually into writing ELT books, and I stayed in that career for about 11 years. In my late 20s, I had the urge to write a novel. So I snuck in writing time, before and after my day job. And that novel was string Bridge, which was published in 2011 by a small press called blocking press. Unfortunately, just six months after it's released, the publishing company liquidated and so I had to make a decision search for another one, which had already taken me three or four years. Nope, or self publish it. So this was the beginning of me becoming my own boss. And I had the Publishing and Editing know how so I thought why not try my hand at designing word cupboards. So very soon after that, I started designing covers for author friends as favourites. I didn't charge back then. So it's just a fun way to make some to use my creative energy. Until one of my friends, Carol Cooper,
Wendy Jones:do you know her? Oh, yeah, Carol. Yeah.
Jessica Bell:I had designed a cover for her as a favour. And she said, Jess, you should seriously stop charging for this. And so I did. And since then, I've designed hundreds of covers for indie, traditional hybrid authors, which best sell it lists and won awards and have even graced the shelves of WH Smith at Heathrow Airport. So turns out the teacher in high school told me to do art can go on and off.
Wendy Jones:Well, I I'll be at Heathrow Airport on Monday, so I might have to go into WH Smith. See if anything's there. Jessica Bell cover designs now that'll pass the time wanted. That is a fabulous story. Thank you. It long story. Time, did I just right. That's what we need. It's a great story. So the one thing everyone fast finds out about me is that I don't have a creative bone in my body when it comes to cover design. My words are my thing, not creative design. So when an artist wants start as a cover designer, or designing a cover, should I say? Well,
Jessica Bell:I think the best thing to do is look at the current trends in the marketplace and try to mimic a cover that you like, but if you don't have any Photoshop or Illustrator skills, then I advise you don't try it yourself because creating In a competitive cover in Word, or Canva, just does not cut it. It's not going to sit well alongside all the other top notch companies. So it's best to just hire a professional since they actually know what they're doing and will make something metal. So yeah, unless you want to learn Photoshop, go for it.
Wendy Jones:Well, I'm with you when it comes to cover design, I hired a professional from the get go. And I'm jolly well pleased. I did because the covers are amazing. And everybody loves them. They've won awards. But I, I'm not a cover designer at all. I listen, I can't picture the covers until they show me them. And then I'm like, wow, that is phenomenal. Yes, that was the cover I wanted. So covered.
Jessica Bell:Even as a cover designer, I'm almost the same. I actually need to play around with images in Photoshop before I start getting ideas. And when an author asks me, so what is your what's your idea? I'm like, I don't know yet. I start working. Yeah.
Wendy Jones:Oh, it's tricky one, really. So if someone approaches you to have a cover design, what's the baseline information you require from them to design the book?
Jessica Bell:Well, I have a detailed questionnaire that I request the author to fill out. So along with technical specifications, I asked a few questions related related to theme setting character attributes, symbolisms cost the blurb of the book and a few excerpts and that usually gives me enough information to go on.
Wendy Jones:Oh, nice, great after say that it's phenomenal. lightproof cover designers getting shortchanged for me, I just sent her one going. It's one of the denudation McKenzie books, and this one's got dead nuns and it gets and then she comes up with something you know, she's phenomenal.
Jessica Bell:You follow Crime Thriller though, don;t you
Wendy Jones:you write crime thriller? Yeah. And to be honest,
Jessica Bell:they follow it they follow a pretty good formula, those.
Wendy Jones:It's the same series. So the series so far, so like to book seven, I just find this one set and dandy New Orleans.
Jessica Bell:Well, I do the same thing, when it's a series. It's just the first book, The first look always goes through a detailed thing. And then the rest of them, it's very easy to continue on.
Wendy Jones:Yeah, no cover designers and amazing how they can work it out. I just like that's all I've given you. And suddenly you've come up with this phenomenal cover. At the bottom of every cover is dandy. So that helps, because it's a series. Yeah. Oh, heavens, I feel like to give them more information now.
Jessica Bell:I can send you my questionnaire if you like, oh, yeah,
Wendy Jones:My cover designer would be like, What the heck happened here? So you've already talked about taking into account current trends. But how important is it to take into account current trends and cover design and why?
Jessica Bell:Well, if you want your book to sell, it's very important. Because it's because readers buy what they recognise as something they're going to enjoy. So if they've read a book that they've loved, and had a certain look to it, they're gonna see another book with that look and go, Hey, let's try that. But trends do change. And those changes have to start somewhere. So if your game, be creative, see if you can start your own. I've done it a few times. I haven't started new trends, but I've been ahead of a trend. About a few years back, I designed a cover for somebody. And now suddenly all farmers are like that mean what
Wendy Jones:I have to say I'm a publisher and a cover designers nightmare. And as a reader, I mean as a reader, not as a as an author. Because all I can think is if I see the girl with the girl with and the same broad brush yet. All I can think is are same old, same old. Here we go again, why they aren't copying each other. So I think in some ways, the publishers and the cover designers are correct. People do buy what's what they
Jessica Bell:do, and people get sick. And that's why they change so yeah, yeah. To get it at the beginning.
Wendy Jones:Yeah, because I am just like, Oh, I saw that last month. Why am I seeing it again? This month? It's the same book. Yeah. Just
Jessica Bell:I've even mentioned in my book about a few things like that. I mean, if you search for novel set in Africa, all covers are orange,
Wendy Jones:The minute I get out here I'm gonna look that up. We're gonna talk about your new book yet because I'm very excited to have got an art. And I'm so excited about reading it. I can't wait to read on the plane. There you go. Okay, I'm gonna read on the plane to America. And then I'm gonna review on Goodreads because apparently I can't already which is good. Yeah. Saying that I'll be jet lagged. I just hate when I get to America. So maybe I'll leave a couple of days. So I sound competent.
Jessica Bell:It's very light hearted. It's not it's a fun read. It's not too technical. So I've managed to make it a fun experience. It's
Wendy Jones:awesome. So we've already said this, and we've covered it really, but how much input do you require from the author? Now, I want to take that a step further from what we've already said. I mean, I know authors who have said to the public to the cover designer, no, I don't like that. No, I don't like that. No, I don't like that. No, I don't like that. And to be honest, by that point, I'd be losing the world to live. How do you handle authors that want a lot of changes?
Jessica Bell:Sometimes, if they're stubborn, I have to grit my teeth. And Barrett, there are some instances where I've actually had to leave my name off the credit, because I did not want it to represent me as a designer anymore. Most times, I'm able to convince them, otherwise, I if they're open to listening to me, because so many authors think that they can get all of the story attributes into the cover. So it's not about getting the story into the cover your book is the story that covers that advertisement, you need to portray a feeling or a theme, but something that's going to catch the eye and match what's in the marketplace. So what was the question?
Wendy Jones:Change the question, because I said, you know, how much input do you require? Oh, yeah, a live from an author.
Jessica Bell:I basically asked them if they have a vision of their own, but I can't say I cannot promise I can implement it, because it's more effective for them just to tell me what the book is about. And then I can just focus on creating a cover that's going to hit the target audience.
Wendy Jones:No, that's really good. I mean, I'm fortunate, and with my back to the buffalo books, I get in coach with a publisher, and they're very good. My focus and Florida books, I didn't get any input to the cover, I thought they were a little young for it. But that was fine. But then apparently, the publisher said to me, the publisher has gone out have not gone out of business, they've deliberately wound up the business and move back to Australia. And they're not publishing anymore. But they said to me, when they gave me the rights back that I was correct in the first instance, that it was a little young, because they'd been told that when they were trying to get translation rights at Frankfurt Book Fair that they couldn't, with the covers, reflecting the book, so But I trust the publishers on the hall and the cover designers, because let's just say, I couldn't vision, anything. I can't envision anything to do with a cover. I just know what I know what I like, as they say, yeah, yeah,
Jessica Bell:that's that's the main issue with authors who don't have any inclination towards visual activities that think they have this idea of what they like, but they don't realise that it's going to be beneficial for
Wendy Jones:them. Precisely. And to be honest, I can't even envision what I like before the book comes out. The only thing I've ever done with my cover designer is I've asked her if she could change the colour and book to look too much like the colouring book, one, I wanted to stand out. And she changed it to blue. And it looked great because it's the shadows as a sunlight colour, and the blue one was red. And the second one was a kind of orange and it looked too close to change it to blue and white Moonlight was marvellous, great work perfectly. But other than that, I've never asked for anything. The only two things I've said is
Jessica Bell:the title. Can you make the title bigger?
Wendy Jones:No, I havent said that no, no, no, no, I haven't said that. And I know that's an immutable, done that the only thing I've said was book five, had to have a picture of the discovery on the front, which was a specific ship and dandy historic ship, and it had to have that because the whole thing was set around that. That was it. And book seven I said we need New Orleans at the top because the tops of something from the book. So I said top bottoms dandy in the top something from the book. I said nice of New Orleans as well as dandy. That was it. That's the only I've ever had my cover easy. Anyway, I'm just I'm just saying that sometimes people are not as a nightmare. So can you talk us through the process of designing a cover? How do you go about it? Well,
Jessica Bell:the real answer to that is very long and detailed. That's why I've written a whole book. But to break it down very simply. I start with reading the questionnaire. Then I research best selling competitive titles to see what's the trending in the genre, then I'll research and collect stock imagery that I can potentially use. By the time ideas start to develop, I'll launch Photoshop and start playing around with the images and text combinations until I have a few solid ideas I'd like to execute. Then when I do have solid ideas, I will create three samples to present present to the author. At that point, I advise my clients to do a little bit of market research on their own before choosing a design. And a great way to do that is to use PIP food. Have you ever used them to live pics through P IC, k fu.com, which is a live polling service. And it's very fast and the results bring in some really great feedback on the design. So you can actually see which ones will attract a wider audience. That can happen from the moment you post you can have 50 responses within an hour. Gosh, yeah, it's great. So if my client does do that, I'll consider the feedback and do revisions if necessary. And I do about I do through visuals for the price I charge if they want more charge. Usually it's very, very rare for my clients to make more than one or two. If anyone does want to use pick through you can get 50% off your first poll. If you use the promo code JBD. Here, Bb, yeah. jpg.
Wendy Jones:Excellent. Fantastic. I'm going to have a look at it. It sounds. Yeah, I always feel sorry for cover designers where when people will often put it in a Facebook group. And they'll go, which of those covers Do you like, and everybody just slacks off the cover designer the cover? And I'm like, That's not fair. They're not sending it to you to put into the public domain for every man and his dog to have mentioned that
Jessica Bell:in my book. Actually, you need to ask you to sign up before you do that. Because some designers do not like the draft being put out there. Because the drafts, they don't realise it. What they can do. For me, it's just ideas.
Wendy Jones:Yeah, so yeah, I feel sorry for them. You know, it's terrible. The only thing I send it Tuesday, usually, I usually like them anyway, but it gets three different ones. And I send them to my relatives to say, what do you think and we all one that we all like, and that's it? That's the one that happens, you know, it's usually just three different colours. It's not, you know, not huge things. But we usually all agree I wouldn't put it in the public domain. Goodness, that sounds that's dreadful.
Jessica Bell:The designers don't mind. I don't mind if I if I'm proud of my samples, as they are probably happy to let them do it. Sometimes an author has had a lot of input as well. And I've produced something that I wouldn't necessarily create. If I had to say, in that case, I would want them to Yeah.
Wendy Jones:Right. Yeah. So. So you do all of that. And then sorry, I know, it's all in your book. And it's a long thing. But where do you actually start? Is it you start with the, you know, if you now know nothing about cover design? So would you start with putting images together in
Jessica Bell:I look for images that I can combine to create one very vague idea of what is in my head. And that that idea will develop as I start mixing and matching fonts and images? And it's a little bit like one of those one of those map things that people create with words, because the branches coming off, what do they call? Oh, yeah. Mind Map. Yeah, that ends up becoming a mind map of ideas in Photoshop, and eventually, one will stick. And like, Okay, I'm using that, that that. And so I need it. It's like a collage on I need to work hands on. I can't just think in my head, and I'm not a SketchUp. No, yeah, I've manipulate imagery that already exists. I can work with an illustrator if an author wants me to. But for my base price, which I think is planning to ask that too. Yeah. Yeah. My standard pricing. Yeah, my standard rate is 550 euro for ebook and paperback and that's using stock imagery. But it can get more expensive if you want custom imagery or photography or illustrations. And the most expensive cover I've done costs around 2k haven't yet. That's because it was for a while The chick lit novel where the author wanted very, very specific illustration. But didn't want an illustrator wanted to use stock imagery I ended up manipulating and combining 50 different vectors. In this one, it was a lot of work. So yeah, it can it can add up if depending on the work. For 550, I will do manipulate around five images or so to create something that's unique. Plus using effects and add ons and various other tricks of the trade.
Wendy Jones:Oh, that's good. That's really good. I don't want to give all the tricks of the trade away. Obviously, it's in your book that we're going to talk about it in a bit. But yeah, I'm just fascinated by it, because I wouldn't even know where to start off to say, and so what genres do you cover, and as many you prefer over others.
Jessica Bell:I do all genres except children's picture books. Well, as a role, I've done a couple but only since the author provided illustrations to work with was basically changing the layout of some of the illustrations to fit text. I do not illustrate fiction books, my favourite genres of literary and poetry because I have the opportunity to be more artistic and utilise more abstract concepts rather than literal literal once I get to really it's a little bit like writing poetry and images, I will say.
Wendy Jones:Yeah. I love that description. That sounds fabulous. That's great. And what would be your top three tips for anyone looking for a cover designer?
Jessica Bell:Okay, one. To start, take a look at some online lists from successful authors and publishing consultants that recommend the best of the best. I would start with the lists that you can currently find on Kindle printer, make use of.com, creative pen and John Fox, John Fox is that of book fox, a quick search online, we'll bring those up. And also, if you're a member of the alliance of independent authors also find a list of better service providers in their partner directory. And some of them offer discounts to I offer 10% off to ally members as well.
Wendy Jones:Fantastic, you even get a bargain
Jessica Bell:you need to spend quality time looking at their portfolios to make sure you like their style, and you would be suitable to partner with because it is a partnership, you're not just hiring them to do something and letting them go. Countless times in my career, I've heard authors complain that they covered designers have disappointed them. But this isn't always the designers fault. Because if an author hasn't done their research properly, or they have rushed into a decision, then their choice and design and may have not been a wise one. If you're hiring a designer because they're cheap, that's the wrong reason. If you're hiring a designer because a friend recommended them, that could also be the wrong reason. If you're hiring a designer, because you are incredibly in love with their portfolio, then that's just the way if you can't afford them saved, because it's worth it really is three very simple book well in advance, because I'm typically booked out two or more months in advance. And I know that other popular designers not to
Wendy Jones:know they're good tips, actually. Yes, absolutely. And what would be your top three tips for anyone actually working with a cover designer. Apart from well, you make the time to
Jessica Bell:be patient and give us time to respond to emails. Don't be alarmed or disappointed or annoyed if they take a few days to respond. Because if we spent all day answering emails, we'd never get actually get any work done when I wake up to around 30 client emails every morning because I'm working on around 20 projects at the same time and delegating to my systems is something other so it can get a bit angry, which also leads into to use clear and relevant subject lines in your emails. Not just question or by the way, because there are there are a lot when I'm sifting through my emails in the morning I need to be able to navigate what's important and what I can leave for a little later and it will also help you as well. When navigating your way Have correspondence with your designer because if everything ends up in the same thread, you're not going to find answers to what you're looking for. Also, realise that we are humans with feelings just like you on the other side of the screen. With today's texting culture and condensed way we interact on social media, it's so easy to rattle off 10 separate one liners as they come to mind. Please don't do that. Write your feedback down until you no longer have anything to add, and then sleep on it. And then communicate your thoughts with your designer all at once. Also, it's a good idea to refrain from just texting them via Facebook or WhatsApp or Viber, etc, with important information because that can get lost. They could be busy, look at it, and then forget that it was even there. If you need to chat to them, book an appointment, or at least text them and say, Can you chat now so that they can be completely present and don't know information versus strength? Now, they're all very good tips. Actually. They really are. And we do it. We forget that people have feelings, we forget that this person at the end of anything anymore. And people just are in a bad mood for whatever and just send it oh, they don't take stock. Take a step back and think right? Let me think about this. Hello anymore. Just a one line, this needs to be done blah, blah.
Wendy Jones:Sure, start with such a nice day. Or you hope you're well. You don't like anything? So, in addition to designing book covers, you're also a writer, tell us about your own books. And you can tell us about can you make the title bigger as well.
Jessica Bell:I really will. Let me let me just brush over all the others first and then I'll go into detail. Today, I've published three poetry books, twisted velvet chains fabric and needed and she my fabric was a semifinalist in a good reaps Choice Awards in 2012, which I'm very proud of. written five novels. String bridge the book in like orange peel white lady, and my latest how Ocasio Blum touched happiness which is a speculative novel and has recently won three literary awards Wow. Dragonfly Book Awards wishing shelf and forward in this book of the year. My writing in a nutshell series via which six pocket guides on writing editing and publishing my memoir which is called go I've memoir about binge drinking self hatred and finding happiness. This was this recently received received Golden wishing shelf Book Awards to me fiction and my poetry is quite literary and somatic one of my fans describe my writing as artistic and musical mine. That's why they don't sell my poetry is very hard hitting and in your face and my reference books are very light hearted and witty, and hopefully entertaining as well as informative. I've been told they are, you know, writer style and all that. Um, latest book, which I'm currently touring around the internet is a reference book called can you make the title bigger the chemistry of book cover design. In this book, you will learn why book cover design is so important whether you're self published, indie or traditionally published the elements of an eyecatching professional cover design, how to research and choose potential book cover designers some of the biggest challenges an author and a designer face during a collaboration. The balance between creating a book cover the author loves the designer loves and a potential reader loves how to prepare for a collaboration, how to ensure a smooth sailing collaboration, costs and recommended designers and it also includes over 100 colour book cover design examples and information about Project agreements. How to Obtain puff quotes for your book, How to Obtain ISBN ins, a list of standard trim sizes and binding options.
Wendy Jones:Excellent. sounds brilliant and I can't wait to read it. I've got to ask why the title? Can you make the titles?
Jessica Bell:Because I get that question so much and authors don't realise that I'm not just sticking text on top of an image I'm I'm designing everything simultaneously. So sometimes there are elements in the cover that are overlapping the title, sometimes the title is already reaching the margins of a book. So obviously, it cannot be made bigger, or the title is way too long. So it looks small. Unless you want me to make it vertical, there's no way I'm making that any better. And I've also tried all the fonts that are going to work. I've tried everything already. So that question is always, I think that's just that.
Wendy Jones:Leave it there. I'm sure we shall leave it there. I'm sure everybody that's listening. I was wondering, are you currently open for commissions for cover designs?
Jessica Bell:Yes, I am. But you need to contact me at least a couple of months in advance, because I'm actually currently booked out three months in advance at the moment. So you need to get in early. Hi. I do continually booking and you just need to make sure you've got time I can't just email them and say, Hey, come over next week.
Wendy Jones:No, now. Work on my final question is Where Can my listeners find out more about you your cover designs and your books? Well, I
Unknown:have a portfolio website at I am Jessica bell.com. And that includes links to all the various means. So it's best to start there and you can find
Wendy Jones:fun tastic Well, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you all the way in Athens today.
Jessica Bell:You too Wendy.
Wendy Jones:And have a great week. And thank you for joining me. Thanks so much. Bye bye. That brings us to the end of another show. It was really good to have you on the show with me today. I'm Wendy H Jones. And you can find me at Wendy H jones.com. You can also find me on Patreon where you can support me for as little as $3 a month which is less than the price of a tea or coffee. You go to patreon.com forward slash Wendy H Jones. I'm also Wendy H Jones on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and Pinterest. Thank you for joining me today and I hope you've found it both useful and interesting. Join me next week when I will have another cracking guest for you. Until then, have a good week and keep writing keep reading and keep learning