Today I chat to Marissa Noelle about Writing Horror Fiction
Today I chat to Marissa Noelle about Writing Horror Fiction
Hi, and welcome to the writing and marketing show brought to you by author Wendy H. Jones. This show does exactly what it says on the tin. it's jam packed with interviews, advice, hints, tips and news to help you with the business of writing. It's all wrapped up in one lively podcast. So it's time to get on with the show. And welcome to episode 133 of the writing and Marketing Show with author entrepreneur Wendy Jones. As always, it's a pleasure to have you with me and I love bringing you this podcast every month. Today, I'm going to be talking to Marissa Nora Elle again, and we spoke to her recently about her experience with literary agents. But today we're going to be talking all things writing horror novels. So horror fiction is today. And I for 1am very excited because I think my books, there's a dividing line between them and horror. And I would like to figure out what the differences are. And maybe I can think about writing horror as well as crime, historical fiction, picture books, and all the other things I do. So what's happening in my life, well, not a whole heap of a lot because I am keeping well out of the way of COVID. Because as I record this on the 22nd of July 2022, I am going to be going to the USA for two months broken speaking tour on the first of August. So just over two weeks, by the time you listen to this, I will be in the United States of America. In fact, many of you might be listening to it before I'm even awake. Because we'll be in USA time or I will be in Eastern Standard Time. And I'm very much looking forward to that. So I've been getting ready for that I've been getting ready for the conferences I'm speaking at one of the conferences I'm speaking at is the is the marketplace to what is the sorry, I've got to get this right. It's actually manuscript to marketplace conference at the University of Shepherdstown Shepherdstown University in West Virginia. And that's one of the first conferences I'm speaking at. That's the second week in September. And I will put the link in the show notes and you will be able to join me there it would be lovely to see you. One of the others I'm speaking at is the is the Hampton Roads Writers Conference. And that is in the third weekend September 4, we can September anyways in September, and that is in Virginia Beach and Virginia in the United States. And it would be lovely to see you at both of those places. If you want to find out more about either of those, you can go to my website when the H jones.com. Or I will put the link in the show notes from where I will be for the conferences. It will be lovely to see you. So what have Marisa well as I say we had Marissa here recently. So we did a bio them but we're going to do it again so you know who she is. She is a writer of young adult and middle grade novel she leans towards grounded science fiction, urban fantasy and paranormal, but mental health issues are important to her writing too. As I say She also writes horror fiction. published books include the shadow keepers, the unadjusted trilogy, and the mermaid Chronicles. Growing up, Marissa had plenty of ideas for career and still regrets not moving to Hawaii to train dolphins and pretend the real world didn't exist. struggling with anxiety and anorexia led her to the field of psychology. Heavily influenced by underdog movies such as the Karate Kid, she realised her mission in life was to help other people through any medium. embarking on a psychology degree she wants to emulate her hero Jodie Foster from Silence of the Lambs, and actually tried to secure work experience at Broadman. Thankfully, she left the idea of criminal profiling behind but uses many of these aspects in her novels. And I'm very much looking forward to meet to introducing you to Marissa again, and to hearing about horror fiction but before then, just to say that I enjoy bringing you this podcast every week I do so willingly. But it does take time out of my writing. If you would like to support that time. You can do so for $3 a month which is about two pounds 50 u k pounds per month, the price of a tea or coffee. And I would be very grateful it would mean you liked the show and you want it to continue and it would help me enormously because as they say at the moment, every little counts. So without further ado, let's get on with the show and meet Marissa i and we have Marissa with us. Welcome Marissa. Thank you very much for having me. It's
Marisa Noelle:Great to be back. Oh, it really is good to have you back. I knew I had to have you back because you were so good last time and I knew you would be able to talk to me about horror. Yes, my favourite topic.
Wendy Jones:A bit of horror, we love a bit of death and all that. And I said on a public podcast, we'll be in bother while the police knock that door, Marisa
Marisa Noelle:Yeah, exactly. Well, you should see the things I have to Google.
Wendy Jones:I get a bit worried about that sometimes. You know, I need to can favour on the podcast, but I'm going to do anyway. You're, you're breaking up a little bit. So if you if we both switch off our our videos might help you because I don't know whether it's my site or your site. So if we stop our videos, they wouldn't have a podcast in the slightest. They're doing on the dark side. Now we're really out on the dark side because we can't see each other.
Marisa Noelle:Wow.
Wendy Jones:So we really are in the zone. Anyway, let's move onwards. So, let's talk about writing horror fiction, because I'm so excited about getting onto this topic. So we're all on the same page. What exactly constitutes horror fiction?
Marisa Noelle:Do you know when you sent the list of questions through and I saw that and I went, Oh, what does constitute horror because, all right, it's such a wide area. And it covers so many different aspects, whether you have fantasy horror, or dark fantasy, or sci fi horror or contemporary horror. So really, I went and looked it up. And here's what Google told me. Google tells me that horror is a genre of speculative fiction, which is intended to frighten scare or disgust. I think really, horror can be any within any genre. But as long as it is there to unsettle you and scare you and get that adrenaline pumping, then it can be classified as horror. So, yeah, I like I like that description. And good old Google, you know, horror, spit scares the pants off me because as you're right, it's speculative. So it's something that could happen, but it generally doesn't. But you've always got that horrible feeling. Don't use it. Hey, this could happen to me.
Wendy Jones:Absolutely. I mean, I think if you write contemporary and you're doing serial killers or something like that, then you've got that very real feeling. It's replaced in a spaceship like alien or something like that, then it's, you know, a lot more removed. So yeah, well, I have to say the thing first thing that springs to mind for me all the time I've flattened the pants off myself when I was about 20. or there abouts? Because I went to see Friday the 13th at the cinema on my good gidea And why did I do that?
Marisa Noelle:Yeah, I think those 80s 90s slasher films are I never I always never watched them. Because when I was young, I saw a poster huge poster in my video shop. Yes, I'm old enough to have gone to the video shop of Freddy from A Nightmare on Elm Street. And you know, he's all burned and horrible looking. And I was 10. And it terrified me. And I've never forgotten that image. And I refuse to watch any Friday the 13th after that. And as I knew, like Halloween, and Friday the 13th We're in the same vein. I didn't watch any of those either. So I don't love the slasher, but I prefer the creepy spine tickling kind of horror than the blood and the guts. Yeah. So yeah, no, but I think when we miss this Great discussion, because it leads on to my next question beautifully, which is, why would someone want to write or indeed read horror fiction? And what makes it so popular? Because it really is popular? Yeah. And it has been for a long time. And I think it always will be you know, it's much like crime because it never goes out of fashion. either. It's, and you know, they crime and horror go together as well. So I think, for me, personally, I love the concept of good versus evil. So especially when you're taking like a supernatural entity or something that's not human or even if you have a serial killer. I studied psychology at university and I tried to get work experience at Broadmoor, which is the UK is Premier, criminal prison, basically. Because I was fascinated by the idea of the brain of a serial killer of what what leads them to make those decisions. So for me, I really like to understand the motivation. So when it's a human, and also that whole idea of good and evil, and so much of horror, also explores almost things from a religious aspect, the whole God versus the devil, you know, so that comes into the horror movies and books a lot. And the idea not only are you confronting what your beliefs might be, but also what that what that actually means and what is good and what is evil and how do we define that? So I think You know, as part of those questions, it's the unexplained, it's the things that we don't know, how to and how to control, and they fascinate us. And I think we will always be interested in the things that we can't control that we don't know how to explain until we can, and even then, more so.And I think horror is just, it's just good fun, I think it gets gets your blood pumping. It's a good, you know, fast paced story, most of the time that, you know, people who enjoy that adrenaline hits, know, they're gonna get that from reading a horrible, and I think, also is that horror, when it's not contemporary. So when it's in a fantasy setting, or something like that, you can explore themes at one step removed, so that you don't feel like it's gonna happen to you. But, you know, you can explore all these horrible things without actually being scared for your own self. So that distance can be a good way to explore those kinds of things, as well. So for so many reasons, or maybe, you know, you're just just not quite right. You know, like me, my husband looks at my Netflix profile, and just says, What's wrong with you? Because it's all death and murder and scary. And, and yeah, I love my horror. So, I hope that gives you some insight into why I think why I enjoy horror or why I think people, people enjoy it. Yeah, no, actually does. And I have to say, you're right, it's that being able to dance on the dark side without actually having it happen to you. So I think we all like to be a little bit scared, don't we? I think it's natural, really to, to want to dabble in that. But of course, we don't really want to dabble in it at all. So it's it's the safety of doing it through the pages of a book. It's one step removed. So you're right. Yeah.
Wendy Jones:Absolutely. So, moving on to the next question, which is all genres of tropes. But what tropes are usual when writing horror?
Marisa Noelle:There's quite a few. And I've jotted a few things down. And this is by no means exhaustive. But you will always get movies set on Halloween, you know, when the veil is thin. And that supernatural can cross over or, or something like that. So whether you're looking at, you know, someone who's been fooling around with a Ouija board, or you're looking at a vampire story, you know, it's a running theme. And many, many, many horror horror books and films that you'll get that conjuring evil. So the idea of, you know, playing with a Ouija board, having a seance to talk to a dead relative, you know, evoking power as a witch, maybe you're calling on some some sort of God or demon or so those are very, very common common themes. And in lots of books. One of my personal favourite is the found footage. You don't see this done as much in books, because it's hard to pull off in the book. Something like The Blair Witch Project would be a prime example of a movie where it feels like it's real. And it's happened. And I think those are the creepiest ones personally, because that found footage gives you the feeling that things are real. And this could happen to your next door neighbour or you. And definitely makes me feel quite scared. Sometimes. I remember watching paranormal activity, and I'm thinking, Yeah, I can't watch the rest of the series, that's actually could happen. I guess, I guess it depends on what you believe, you know, whether you believe you could actually contact a demon or a ghost or something like that. Another classic is obviously being alone in the dark house. So you know, classic sort of teenager or, or women or somebody, you're alone, and the electricity goes out, you're isolated, nothing works, and you have to deal with whatever's coming your way. And I think most a lot of horror books and movies have the bad guy who won't die. You know, we get to the end, we get to the climax, we kill the bad guy. But then it always comes back for his moment. Have one more, one more, you know, yeah, I know there's they can be quite funny. And some, maybe some movies and books actually kind of poke fun at it and make them come back several times, you know, which can be quite amusing. And you've got to get rid of your cell phone, because if you can call for help, then that's not going to be very useful. So yeah, the cell phone is gonna die, you've got to be it's gonna be out of battery or it's gonna be broken or it's gonna have no reception. You got to get rid of that cell phone. Another common thing is splitting up. So the group will get, you know, either intentionally split up or they will split up and actually I've just been writing, editing my young adult horror and they they get paired off into twos and start getting picked off so that It's been fun to do that. And one of the things that always makes me laugh, especially movies is when your heroes running upstairs should be running out the front door. So that's quite a common thing. You see horror films, how they get stuck inside rather than being able to run out and get free. And I think one that's probably more movie related than book related is that you're safe if you're a virgin, about being a virgin, that makes you pure, and that you won't get killed if you're a virgin. So that comes up. That comes up quite a lot. That's not one paragraph, I have to say. Yeah, yeah, you're safe until you so when you have those, like Scream would be a great example. The character in scream is a virgin to start with, but does end up doing the deed. And then obviously, her life becomes in danger. But her life was always in danger. So, you know, they played around with that trope quite long, which was the scream, I think, is a really good movie to watch for poking fun at the tropes and inverting them. They do that exceptionally well, that that franchise, so definitely investigate those. So those aren't all the tropes, but they are sort of my favourites. And they they are classic, and they never get old for me. So yeah, that's my little list.
Wendy Jones:There we go. Wow. I mean, that's, that's quite a list, really. And there are a lot of tropes as you're right. Which, I mean, makes my next question quite difficult to answer, really. But if someone's interested in writing horror, where would they start?
Marisa Noelle:Well, I think you start in a lot of places. You could take one of the tropes and say, Okay, how can I make this more interesting thing? Or how can I put a fresh spin on it and brainstorm from there? If you're looking for inspiration, Stephen King's on writing book is really good. So it's part biographical and part writing advice. And we know that he is one of the masters of horror. And he not only does, you know, scary horror, but he does psychological horror. You know, he covers the whole ground of horror, I think, as well as Dean Koontz, I think I'm actually a bit more of a Dean Koontz fan, because I find dinking it's more consistently involved in the supernatural, which is what I prefer. So, those two, read them read lots of their books. And I think it will start to give you a clue into how it works, how that formula works, but also Stephen King's on writing, it gives it a lot of good advice on how to write.And a little bit insight into him and his spine. And I have a little reference book I use called Writing scary scenes by rain Hall. So this is all about Yeah, this is more about when you're actually writing. It talks about the words and your sentence structure, and what kind of words are appropriate for horror. And it talks about like, you know, so if you looked at we talked about being isolated, like alone in a dark house, so you're setting up a cave, and abandoned mineshaft around building a wreck underwater. So it gives you these little tips about how to get your isolation, how to build your monster, how to detail a chase and an escape. What point of view you'd be using how to address violence and gore. So it's a really handy little book that i i will use quite frequently just to Yeah, give myself some some more insight into how to actually go about the mechanics of writing it.Yeah, so I think that's really my advice, read, study and watch movies do is, you know, excellent advice. And I'll have to say, Great, Stephen King's on writing. It's brilliant. absolutely outstanding. I mean, I've put off reading it because I don't really write horror, but people kept recommending it. And I thought, Oh, well, I'll give it a go. Brilliant. It's one of my go to books now. Regardless of whether you write horror or not.
Wendy Jones:Stephen King's book on writing is outstanding. Yeah, it is good. It is really good. And I think because he's got those biographical anecdotes, and now I think it makes it less dry than some of the other writing books you might get your delivers. It delivers that information quite well. So you can whip through it without feeling like it's a chore. That's good. Absolutely. Yeah, I agree. I want to take it one step further now because we've we've decided where we want to start. But when it gets we've obviously most of us have planners are pranksters, although I feel I'm a bit of a plant study and somewhere in the middle, but isn't necessarily to plan a horror book or kind of be written by the seat of one's pants and why do you think that?
Marisa Noelle:I think writing horror isn't any different to approaching another book. So if you know whether you're if you're a pantser than pants, if you're a plotter and plot or if you're a pantser like you and I even do that I don't think it requires any more plotting than any other story or any less. I think it's just about your process. I think, you know, there are certain beats that you want to get right? Like you want, you want to have some sort of reveal or crescendo at your midpoint. So, yeah, it's good to think about that. And it's good to think about what you want your ending to be, whether there's a resolution or whether there's whether it's left on a, you know, as so many books and movies are today, whether it's left, that evil actually does win. So, apart from that, I don't think you need to think too much more than you would, while plotting a normal book. And just have fun with it. I think horror can be really exciting and fun to write and just that those words flow. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. We have to have fun with any type of writing really, but I think they're really fun. More horror writing, otherwise you terrify
Wendy Jones:Yeah, no know. I often wonder what was going yourself. through. I don't know whether this is horror or psychological thriller, but it's the Silence of the Lambs. Oh, my good, goodness. I'm wondering what was going through somebody's mind when they wrote that, you know, I'm like, Oh, heavens. I love that. And that was why I wanted to be a criminal profiler. Yeah. Fascinating. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's a good that's a good one to study actually for. Yeah. And that is scary. Because it could be I mean, it is real. You know, we there are people like that in the world. So that that is scary. Yeah. But I made a mistake. And this is this has gone off off piste a bit here. But doesn't matter. We can go everyone. You know, we're having fun. But I read that on that first time. I've I've lived at home and I joined the Navy then to join the army. So I always live with other people reading me because even though I was in my own room, there was people all around. Then I bought a brand new house and moved in night. And that night started reading sounds and alarms in bed. I frightened myself to death. I had to Stop reading it. I've read it since but it's so written that you think this could happen. I was up and going checking the doors all night.
Marisa Noelle:Yeah, yeah, it does. It's been a while since I've read it. But it might get back to work, because I love it when an author can create that tension before anything actually happens. And that's one of the reasons I also love Dean Koontz is I feel like he brings so much suspense, that you're looking over your shoulder and you're halfway through the book and nothing's actually happened, but you are so tense. I think he's I think the exorcise was an incredibly well written scary book, it might be outdated now. But when I read that, you're I think I was 14 or 15. And I was terrified when I read that. Yeah, so, so good, so good for ya. So there are some people you just need to read, because they're absolutely 100% bang on when it comes to it, they've got so good.
Wendy Jones:So what would be your top three tips for anyone considering writing horror?
Marisa Noelle:Well, read read across the genre, make sure that you understand, you know, the tropes and what you want to do with them and how the tension or suspense is built. And you know, if you want to check, tackle any differently, I'd say be careful what you Google not I know we were joking about this earlier, but not just from my other places gonna come knock on my door, but also from like, what kind of information you actually want to bring into your brain. So I was Googling I was writing, oh, it's only a YA book. I say only. But you know why I can be just as filled with horror as adult books. But I had to google acid burns, and the effects of what that would look like on someone's skin versus first degree, second degree, third degree. So I had to look at these images so that I knew how to describe them. It can be quite unsettling when you have to do that kind of research. And you know, most horror will involve things that you might feel slightly uncomfortable seeing or reading about. And I approached that where I would
Wendy Jones:Yeah, I mean, that leads me to my next question. Anyway, I think you've answered it that was wondering how graphic a horror book needs to be, to be honest.
Marisa Noelle:Yeah. It you know, I used to read a lot of an author called Richard layman, probably in my late teens, and just look at it for a minute and then turn away and, you know, they were quite graphic. They, you know, they were stabbings and strangling and all sorts of things. And it was always try not to bombard myself with too many images. We also had to centred around some sort of killer. And they actually did unsettle me, they did make me feel a bit uncomfortable. Whereas if I read Dickens or Stephen King, it's so the horror read about how quickly it would take somebody to to bleed out if is so much more psychological and you don't you're not getting the graphic displays of blood and death. And I think that's far more effective personally, that's that's what I personally you stop them, like where you stop them. Where would where choose to do. But there is a there is a slasher market out there, and people read them and people watch them. So if that's they will bleed out the quickest. And I didn't look at what you're interested in, you know, go for it. But if you're not doing a slasher, then don't put in the violence if you don't any images for that. I don't think I could. So reading that need it. Yeah. So it just depends what you're writing.
Wendy Jones:Yeah, no, that's, that's a good point. Really. I know, we've discussed horror books and authors already. But information. I was okay with that. I think the images there any other author books, any other horror books or authors you think people should read? To get an idea?
Marisa Noelle:Yeah. So I mentioned Dean Koontz, Tim King obviously bring a lot more for me a lot more angst, I guess. and Richard layman that that gives you quite a good. Joe Hill is also quite good. He's written I've read one of his books But if you're just reading about the information, but sometimes called Nosferatu, and which means vampire in German, basically. So, that gives you a little clue about what the books you need to see this thing so that you know how to describe about. That's a well written book. I think it could be it could have been shorter, it was quite longer. It could have been shorter in my opinion, but it was well written. And another it. So I would just be careful about your own mental health. author, I stumbled across I don't know how I missed him was Grady Hendrix. So I've now actually listened to all his Looking into these things, what you're actually willing to look books on audio, and they got a really good niche where he takes that middle aged housewife and throws her into a situation at and not the other point would be don't have any gratuitous whether it's vampires or a horror house or something. And he does that really, really well. So I think that would be violence in in the home. All right, I think horror can be one to look at. An older author would be Peter Straub. He's quite creepy. I'd say more like Stephen King, but yeah, but on horror with with no violence whatsoever. It's it's more about on Stephen King on a good day. So. So that's a good one to check out. And I was just looking at my my shelf. My horror shelf. Yeah, I think I think those are the main ones. your tension and and how you're building up a situation than how And if you're looking for young adult horror, definitely check out Kat Ellis who's got quite a few books under her belt. And many times someone is being stabbed or the way that they're Crystal Sutherland, who's written House of Harlow. Really, really good. Really, really, really well done horror for being tortured or killed. So just keep that in mind that young adult that which is my happy place. So and there's my books, you know, you can always check out my books. There you go. So tell us about your own horror books. Yeah, so sometimes less is more, and that you don't need to have horrible I have two that I would classify as horror or dark fantasy. One of them the shadow keepers centres around a girl who sees greyed out scenes to get the effect that you want. But crow like creatures and mirrors and she's. So every time she looks in the mirror these these monsters flip by and they start obviously, there are books that do that. And that's what they're whispering at her and she's terrified of them, nobody else can see them. So she gets committed to a mental health hospital to get over it. And then has to end up she ends up about. And that's fine. You don't always need to have that being attacked by these these monsters, and there's a boy she meets who's trapped on the other side with them in the mirror to be a successful horror writer. world. So it's all about how they basically try and prove that these monsters are real and how they how they can fight against them.And then my other book is called The unravelling of Luna forester, and it's a very loose Red Riding Hood retelling it's very creepy. Suffice it to say there are a group of 17 in the found family who have to flee a house fire, but not all human. We've got a Gryphon telepathic box, an angel and a beacon of light. And as they travel through the woods to grandmother's house, they start getting picked off by things one by one and it's up to the reader to figure out what on earth is going on. That's all I can say without spoilers on that one. It's a hard one. That yeah, they're both young adult books crossover. And those are my is my two new horror that I have just been writing horror for my agent which will be given back to her soon. And that one I have called Camp Nowhere. Teams are their gold Duke of Edinburgh expedition and they get stuck in a time loop with a serial killer from 30 years ago. So that's really good fun. That's I've had so much fun writing that. But time i anything to do a time I've discovered I'd never want to write about time again, it's very confusing to figure out what my rules are, if it makes sense. And it has hurt my head quite a lot. So we go, yeah, precisely here. I could never write a chain travel book. I can write historical because it's pretty factual really what happens happens, but moving a bonus event three times it gets confusing, really.
Wendy Jones:So my final question, Where Can my listeners find out more about you and your books?
Marisa Noelle:So I have all my first chapters available on my website, which is very similar well.com And that's NAR Isa, N O E double L E. And if you sign up to my newsletter, you'll get freebies and all sorts of things. And a monthly chance to win an ebook must I'm everywhere on social media either as Marisa well 77 on race and about 12 I spend most of my time on tick tock goofing around. And I also have actually both of those books, the shadow keepers and the unravelling wound forests are coming to audio soon, and everything's available from Amazon Waterstones. So you can you can order books through there. And happy reading. Yeah, that's where I am everywhere. Excellent. Well, don't you? Yeah. Thank you very much for joining us, Melissa. It's been an absolute pleasure having you again. Yeah, it's been fun to be back and chat about one of my favourite favourite genres. So thank you for having me, Ben. You're welcome. Enjoy the rest of your day. Bye.
Wendy Jones:That brings us to the end of another show. It was really good to have you on the show with me today. I'm Wendy H. Jones. And you can find me at Wendy H jones.com. You can also find me on Patreon where you can support me for as little as $3 a month which is less than the price of a tea or coffee. You go to patreon.com forward slash Wendy H Jones. I'm also Wendy H Jones on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and Pinterest. Thank you for joining me today and I hope you found it both useful and interesting. Join me next week when I will have another cracking guest for you. Until then, have a good week. And keep writing. keep reading and keep learning