Ready to venture into the world of pocket novels? Let's uncover the secrets together with Sue Cook, the acclaimed pocket novelist. Our chat goes beyond the size, length, and style as we understand what it takes to craft a captivating narrative within the constraints of a pocket novel. We reveal why staying slightly under the word count is crucial and how the word count requirement varies between People's Friend and My Weekly. Dive in with us as we discuss the significance of detailed research and meticulous plotting in bringing your story to life.
In the next leg of our conversation, we tackle the essentials of a clear structure and the art of creating impactful dialogue. Master how to inject action within dialogues that keep the readers gripped. Sue shares her journey, the genres she's experimented with, and tips to keep your story focused and irresistible. As we wrap up, we touch upon the avenues of self-publishing and where to find more about Sue and her fascinating books. Don't miss this insightful episode packed with tips, techniques, and a peek into Sue's world of pocket novels.
Ready to venture into the world of pocket novels? Let's uncover the secrets together with Sue Cook, the acclaimed pocket novelist. Our chat goes beyond the size, length, and style as we understand what it takes to craft a captivating narrative within the constraints of a pocket novel. We reveal why staying slightly under the word count is crucial and how the word count requirement varies between People's Friend and My Weekly. Dive in with us as we discuss the significance of detailed research and meticulous plotting in bringing your story to life.
In the next leg of our conversation, we tackle the essentials of a clear structure and the art of creating impactful dialogue. Master how to inject action within dialogues that keep the readers gripped. Sue shares her journey, the genres she's experimented with, and tips to keep your story focused and irresistible. As we wrap up, we touch upon the avenues of self-publishing and where to find more about Sue and her fascinating books. Don't miss this insightful episode packed with tips, techniques, and a peek into Sue's world of pocket novels.
Hi and welcome to the Writing and Marketing Show brought to you by author Wendy H Jones. This show does exactly what it says on the tin. It's jam-packed with interviews, advice, hints, tips and news to help you with the business of writing. It's all wrapped up in one lively podcast. So it's time to get on with the show. Welcome to episode 185 of the Writing and Marketing Show with author entrepreneur Wendy H Jones. As always, it's a pleasure to have you join me and I love doing the show, so welcome.
Speaker 1:This week we're going to be talking about writing pocket novels with author Sue Cook, who is very successful at writing pocket novels and getting them published. And if you don't know what they are, stay tuned because you will find out. As this is actually the fourth podcast I have recorded today, I don't have a lot of news for you at all, but I have managed to get some writing done and by the time you hear this, I will be in the United States and I will be knee-deep in book signings. I'm meeting all my American fans and I can't wait. I'm looking forward to it and I'm sure I'll be having a great time in the sun. So we will just get on with the interview today. But before that, it's a pleasure to bring you the show every week. I do so willingly and if you would like to support the time that I do that takes out of my writing, then you can do so by going to patreoncom forward, slash wendeehjones and supporting me by just for three dollars a month, which is the price of tea or coffee a month, and I would be very grateful and it would make me know that you like the show and you want me to continue with it. So patreoncom forward, slash wendeehjones. So what have my guests today?
Speaker 1:Sue Cook. Sue Cook writes short and long stories for the women's fiction market. Her novels include contemporary historical romance sprinkled with crime, intrigue or suspense. You'll find her short stories in the People's Friend in the my Weekly. She lives in a damp and windy corner of northwest England with her husband and five ducks. She finds writing a marvellous antidote to their urge to do housework, and I think that's an absolute brilliant antidote and a brilliant introduction. So without further ado, let's get on with the show and hear from Sue, and we have Sue with us. Welcome, sue. Hi, wendy, nice to be here. Oh, it's an absolute pleasure to have you here. I've wanted to have you on for ages. Because you know pocket novels and quick reads are really popular at the moment, because you know people's attention spans are going down, so you know, I thought it was something that we needed to cover on this show. Where are you coming to us from?
Speaker 2:I'm in the northwest of England in a very rainy bit of the Pennings. Oh right Is there something there at the moment again.
Speaker 1:We have Sun and Bonnie Dundee, which is a miracle Other than I'm seeing much of it, because, as you can't see much of it out of my office, anyway, it's a pleasure to have you, an English woman, and a Scottish woman. You know, it sounds like a cue for a joke.
Speaker 2:I'm a Welsh woman actually.
Speaker 1:An English woman, a Welsh woman and a Scottish woman walk into a bar. I know that's a different one. We won't go down that route. Okay let's move swiftly on and talk about pocket novels. Thank you, I'm really interested in this, so I think we'd better start really by explaining what exactly pocket novels are and how they differ from traditional novels in terms of length and style.
Speaker 2:Okay, right. Well, pocket novels are brought out by the DC Thompson publishing house. They bring them out under the name, the brands of the People's Friend and my Weekly, and they bring out one every two weeks.
Speaker 1:So the developers?
Speaker 2:they're quite small paperback type books that they actually sell on the magazine stands. They are technically magazines but they're neat enough to fit in your handbag or your pocket so you can carry them around with you.
Speaker 1:Excellent. How many pages roughly are they usually?
Speaker 2:I couldn't tell. Well, let's have a look. They're a set size, which is one of the issues you've got to think about when you're writing them. 181, it says on here that's not that slim. Really it's not.
Speaker 2:What's more important is the word count because the two brands have got very different requirements. The People's Friend are currently around 37,000. The guidelines on the website are out to date. They're about to bring some new ones out, but they ask for about 37,000. But they print them in big print so they read. And the People's sorry, my Weekly want about 50,000. The problem they've got is it's like magazines the stories must fit into a template. So you haven't really got much scope to play with that word count, because if it's over the size of the template they will cut bits out. So you're better really to come in just under and have a blank page or so at the end rather than have somebody you don't know taking bits out of your novel.
Speaker 1:If you take bits out of your novel, they might ruin the story art completely. That's happened actually. Oh, it doesn't bear thinking about when you've done a story art perfect and then suddenly part of your art disappeared. Oh gosh, oh yeah. So, as a writer, what are some key considerations when crafting a compelling narrative within the constraints of a pocket novel?
Speaker 2:Right? Well, the first thing I must say is it's essentially the same as writing any other novel, in that you've got to do your research. You've got to read some pocket novels to get a feel of what they're like and then deliver that. So you need to be very careful about how you plot it and you need to be careful about how much you put into it, because you can't have all the subplots that you have in an 80-90k novel, but you still need to have all those important story elements. Yeah, but yeah, the style. Really, as long as you've got what they want in terms of the characters and you've got an emotional read, for whatever reason, and it's suitable for that market and it's a good story, you're standing a good chance. But you have got to be very strict on your word count and you have got to think this is the women's magazine market, so I can't be too graphic. I can't have any sick kids, I can't have cruelty to animals. I've got to think. You know, this is a slightly fluffy pink world that we're living in.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:We kind of cruelty to animals in any books or you get letters. Never kill a cat or a dog, oh no no, no, no, absolutely not.
Speaker 2:But you know, you have to be very careful. I was coaching one writer who was on the new writer scheme, who was looking to write a pocket novel, and her main character was out for revenge against men. Basically, she'd been jolted by her boyfriend and she was after a well-known actor who was about to do the same, somebody else and she was going to go after him and expose him and revenge. I said no, no, that's just not going to happen. I'm sorry, that is not a woman, stubborn, rewinds, I forget, that is too nasty. And then somebody else who she didn't like I think it was the bride who had stolen this guy. She was going to expose her because she was nasty to her dog and I go no, no, no, no, no, it's like a slasher novel to me quite frankly, it was a lovely style.
Speaker 2:it was lovely and bubbly and frothy. It was just the tone of the underlying story and the thing that was happening which just would not fit. So reread reread?
Speaker 1:Absolutely, yeah, definitely. We've already touched on the fact that pocket novels have a portable and accessible nature, so how can writers use that format to their advantage when gaining readers?
Speaker 2:Well, I find it very useful, actually because I'm one of these writers that always has to make things longer. When I finish, because I'm quite sparse with the writing, I get the story down and I think, oh, it's only about half a book here, so it's quite good in that sense, because you don't have to keep expanding stuff to fill the page. You can write quite short chapters which are very engaging. You don't have to describe everything in full detail. You do actually need to think about, when you're finishing a chapter, what's the hook to keep them reading on, because they might be reading that on the bus. And they get to the end of the chapter and think, oh, I have to put it away now, but you want them to open it again.
Speaker 2:So, it has to be quite snappy, not a complicated read. It needs to be an easy read. You need to have engaging characters. You don't need to waffle and completely overwrite and just keep that narrative turning over and turning over and giving them another page to come back and read the next chapter when they get home and they're having a brew.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good point actually. Yeah, I mean, we've all got to do that, but it's even more appropriate in one. That's going to be because we've got it in your pocket and you're only reading it in snatches. Then you need to be able to get to the end of a chapter and then want more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely I like it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I would have thought that genres some genres would work better than others. Are there any genres popular genres that work particularly well for pocket novels and any specific elements that resonate with readers?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Again, the guidelines. I can't say more. Just read the guidelines because they will tell you exactly what they want. Although, as I say, the people's friend aren't on the website at the moment because they're redoing them.
Speaker 2:It's an emotional read. It's the characters and their relationships are at the heart of the story and 99 times out of 100, that means a romance. Certainly for my weekly they will want a romance of some form in them. The people's friend, I believe you can get away with more like a saga type story. So it's family based things. So I've never read one that hasn't got a romance in, but I think it can be done. Most of the ones I've read, to be honest, are contemporary, but they do do historicals. I've been back as far as two to times. That's certainly for my weekly. I don't think the people's friend likely to go that far back. I've been back to Georgian times and I know somebody else who regularly sends them Georgian romances, their regencies. But I think if you're going to go back much further than that, you're struggling. There's often an element of crime, thrillers or suspense. I've seen them set in the Midwest sort of cowboy stories.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah.
Speaker 2:So the scope is quite broad as long as you've got that central romance and it reads like an easy women's magazine read. But there's certain things they don't really like. So they're not going to want scary ghost stories, they're not going to want anything graphic, they don't want sci-fi, they don't want paranormal. Anything that you wouldn't see in a women's magazine, don't put in your pocket novel.
Speaker 1:Right, okay, good advice Again characters. You've alluded to the characters that you know can be quite character driven. So how can writers effectively develop characters within the women's, the limited work count of a pocket novel? They've still got to ensure depth and they've got to be relatable.
Speaker 2:Relatable is the big thing, so you don't need it. Needs to be somebody that the reader could meet. So you're not going to want shakes, you're not going to want multi billionaire people who run the world. There need to be relatable characters, but they also need to be people that they would want to meet and you know, having their social circle there's going to be. They're going to have good qualities lots of them.
Speaker 2:Obviously a flaw Everybody needs to have flaw in your book. But again, don't make it something horrible. No, don't make that. They really do kick the dog when you're not looking like a cat.
Speaker 2:And because, again, because it's a short read and it's an easy read to a certain extent you're limited in the number of characters you can get in there. You've got more scope than a mills and boom. You just want those two characters and you know other people drifting around the periphery. The page down again. But at the same time you don't want to chop it full of characters that you're going to need to flesh out. You need to concentrate on the two main ones and have as much interaction between them as possible. Lots of dialogue. You want to see how they interact and show as much as you, rather than tell if you can, because that will help deepen that relationship and it's just a more engaging read. You want every page to engage your reader. You don't want to sit there giving them the whole life stories. You just want these two now, with the occasional snippet from the past that's relevant to what's happening now and why they are or why they aren't getting on.
Speaker 1:That makes sense actually. Yeah, and you haven't got time, with this constrained work count to go off half cock and give complicated backstories, you know, because there's just not enough words for it, you're ruining the story. No, and time constraints can be challenging in pocket novels. What tips do you have for writers to maintain a well-paced and engaging plot within a shorter format?
Speaker 2:Well, probably a lot of the things I've touched on already is just keep it focused, don't get distracted by the things that are going on. So, for example, I've read, I've just finished a crime novel which is actually fabulous because it was set in the local town by a writer. It used to be a journalist locally, so he knows these places and I know these places. But there was a murder. Somebody disappeared, somebody famous locally disappeared. A little girl had been attacked and been taken into care. They were attacked on Asian people and then race riots erupted. All in one shot, boo, all in one book. Now, this wasn't the pocket novel and they were all linked, they all came together. It was. It was a neo-Nazi group underlying it, bringing them all together.
Speaker 1:All right, you've got a little bit of a pocket novel. You've got one crime.
Speaker 2:If you're going to do it, yeah, now focus on that. You've got two people you need to bring together, so have one problem keeping them apart. Don't have them jetting all over the world. Just keep very, very focused and don't spend lots of time doing great big descriptions about where they are. Be very sparse about the little bits that you feed in. Give us enough to give us flavor of where they are and what they're doing, what they're wearing, maybe, but you know we don't want a Thomas Hardy style chapter of the beautiful place that they're living. So, yeah, be very strict with yourself and I would say you need to probably need to have a very clear idea in your head of what structure of your book is going to be, because obviously you don't need to be as rigid as some of these sort of plotting software out there is.
Speaker 2:But you know you need to have something major happen around the 25% mark. You need to have something major happen around the 50% mark and then somewhere about the 75% mark, and then you will resolve it. So as long as you keep things simple, things like those markers, in your head and have an idea of what needs to happen in those 25%, you can make it happen. Just don't get carried away. Focus on your characters, developing the relationship and anything that will move the plot forward within that little framework, and everything else has to go in the right. You can't do that.
Speaker 2:Cut your darlings, cut your darlings, precisely Cut your darlings, cut your darlings, cut your darlings, that's the one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I'd like to move on to dialogue, if I may, because, honestly, dialogue is a crucial part of everything we write, isn't it? Let's?
Speaker 2:face it Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And what techniques can writers employ to make dialogue impactful and memorable?
Speaker 2:in the short form, oh, dialogue, yeah Well, you certainly need lots of dialogue in these books. They're dialogue heavy because your characters are interacting all the time. So that's the first thing is make sure you've got plenty of dialogue and avoid long stretches of nobody saying anything. So again, another friend of mine sent a pocket novel in, and I think the character drawing somewhere on her own in the car and I think the first 1500 words, nothing was said. What?
Speaker 2:And the editor said no, no, no, no, no. She must be able to speak to somebody. We can't have 1500 words.
Speaker 1:No, do you speak to, even if it was on a mobile phone?
Speaker 2:Well exactly, I think she has a dog in the car or something she can talk to the dog. So you've got to have that in the forefront, if you mind. All the time is these characters need to be interacting, because it's all about what's happening in their lives and how they're dealing with it. Ah, and then after that you need to cut everything that's not necessary, anything that's just general chit chat, the sort of things you'd say during the average conversation with someone about the weather and how you're feeling and how we have any joints or planes and stuff. That's all going to go. So you need to think. You need to start by thinking right. What is this dialogue meant to achieve?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:What other information will the reader have at the end of this conversation? And focus on that and be really rigid with yourself Again. Then each character is not going to have whole paragraphs full of dialogue. They're going to have a couple of lines, they're going to be rapid fire back and forth. That you need to focus on, right, he said, she said, he said, she said, and pair it down to absolutely what they need. I would then actually, if you're not, if you're new to this, I would probably get your computer to read it back to you to see if it sounds like dialogue. That works, and because it's easy to read stuff that doesn't sound natural, and if it doesn't sound natural, it's not going to read natural.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And the reader is going to be put off with that. You also need to think about how each character will speak, because we don't really notice it when we're talking to people around us, but we've all say things the same thing and it's not a different way. We choose our words differently. Somebody may take, you know, five minutes describing the weather. Somebody else may just give you two words and you'll know if you look at your WhatsApps, your text, your emails from people that you know. You can almost tell by looking at it, without looking at the name, who's written it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So you need to be very careful about how each character speaks and make sure you haven't got three, four characters with different names who all speak the same. So I like to tell people to go off and watch something like the Vicar of Dibley their committee meetings. You don't need the name down the side of the script to know who's speaking and it's a bit of a caricature, but you need to be able to tell really, and people react differently to different situations. So I always keep that in that mind. Is this character saying what you think they're going to be saying, based on what you know about them, and are they using the words that you know a 90 year old would you use or a teenager would use? So those are the main things. Keep your dialogue tags to a minimum. You don't need he said, she said, anything like as often as you think.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And if you are having a fair bit of dialogue, make sure you put a little bit of action in there, just to make sure it keeps the reader grounded in the scene so that they're not forgetting they're on a train or in a restaurant, eating or whatever, and it just helps keep the reality at the forefront of the reader's mind. Those would be my main tips. There are some very good advice online. I was just looking at the I love the Jericho Writers website and they've got a really good sheet for, yeah, Everything I've said and more is on there. So just follow that and then read it. Get it read aloud to you. It's like no, I'm self rubbish.
Speaker 1:Mm.
Speaker 2:It was good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now, they're really really good tips, and the Jericho Writers one as well is an excellent tip. Yeah, you'll find that pocket novels are serialized. I mean, if you found that, and if so, what are the benefits and challenges of serializing a story?
Speaker 2:Well, I wouldn't. To be honest, I'll disagree with you there. You do get pocket novels that sometimes come out as two-parts.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:And if in fact, the pocket sorry, the people's friend described their pocket novels as their serials all in one book, mm-hmm. So most of the books they publish, they actually want a one standalone book with no characters that you've used before Though they will, particularly with established writers they will accept a story that goes over two books. Just don't forget, these are little magazines that sit in the magazine section and at the end of those two weeks they're gone, yeah, and the next episode comes in. So if you missed the first episode, you're stuck. You haven't to get on the phone to DC Thompson to say can you send me a copy in the post? Yeah, not something you're gonna be able to get on Amazon. So it does happen, but not very often. The other thing is, as I said, they don't like the same situation with the same characters in. So I've had a cozy crime published with them which was set in a detective agency where my female character had worked away in and got a job and this was the first job in a dream job as a private detective.
Speaker 2:She'd always wanted to be a private detective. I couldn't write another one in that detective agency. It's just not on Right. And now obviously I could write those as an independent author and publish them myself. Yeah, but I can't do it for my weekly, which is who published that one? What you can sometimes do is if you've got a general situation where other characters might then go on and have an interesting story, you can do that. So, for example, one of the writers I know had a romance set on board a ship bound for Australia with convicts on it Right. So they ended up in Australia where the romance managed to flourish and it all ended happily and they settled there. And then she's written another book which was then set in Australia with other people who were in that social setting that they've met since.
Speaker 2:So the characters did kind of appear but, very, very peripherally they weren't germane really to the main story. That's really the only way you could get rendered. They're not wanting characters to keep coming up in successive books.
Speaker 1:Well, that's interesting. I didn't realise that. So direct advice, that one. So, in an era of digital publishing and e-books, what role do pocket novels play in a literary landscape, and how can writers make the most of these formats to reach a broader audience?
Speaker 2:This is a very good question and, to be honest, it's a question a lot of pocket novelists are asking themselves at the moment. Yeah, because they're part of the magazine market, and the magazine market is shrinking, right. Yeah, I think there are still quite a lot of people who like them as kind of longer magazine stories or short-read novels. But the question is then is that the same group of people who read books on their e-readers? And the answer is, to be honest, we're not sure, particularly if they're older readers. What you can do, however, is that, because they're only on the shelves for two weeks and then they're gone, you can then sell that book again very quickly afterwards, and what most people do is they'll contact Albus Croft, who is a not-for-profit organisation that provides stories for sight-impaired readers. Oh yeah, they have a line called. I've got to get this right. I keep trying to call it the Linford Christy line and it's not. It's the Linford Romance line.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Send it into them as a romance, and very often they will take it. So you'll get a paid another small fee from them and they'll get it into libraries as a large print book, right, but that's the only rights they take, so that you can then do with that book that you've still got the rights to whatever you want. So a lot of authors will then self-publish as well.
Speaker 1:So you can bring them out as Amazon short-reads. Absolutely as well. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's good. I like it when you know multi-purpose things. Great idea, yeah. Can you tell us about your own pocket novels?
Speaker 2:So far I've had five published, two with the People's Friend and three with my Weekly, and they're a complete hotch-potch. I'm afraid I get an idea and I write it. I'm not someone who says I always write code of crime set wherever. So I've had. My first one in fact was an adventure set on safari in Botswana and I even managed to get an armed hijack into that one. Wow, my Weekly do like a little bit of danger and adventure so you can get away with things like that, and there's lots of them. Actually get shot. They get rescued very quickly.
Speaker 2:I've had a vet story set in Lancashire. That was a contemporary romance. There was my private detective story but again, that was my Weekly. It can be a little bit more broad with them. The People's Friend are really quite strict in what they'll take. But my private detective story was set in West Yorkshire, very close to my heart, just over the hill. And then I've got a murder at the Abbey. That was the Tudor one set in at the time of the dissolution Right and then the Abbey was closing down and a cook. It was a second chance romance and the cook was a lady who'd been hiding in around the Abbey Ever since she found out what happened to the love of her life, who was a, who was way above her station, and dad separated them and sent him into the clergy. So, of course, as soon as the abbey is closed down, she said here I am. Fortunately, a couple of people got murdered and it all got bit complicated.
Speaker 1:Oh no.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really enjoyed writing that when all of the chrono occurs in that one. And then, finally, there was a Georgian romance, actually set in 1834, which is the time of William IV. I didn't know there had been a William IV, to be honest, and still I started researching this one and that was a Sort of inheritance one for the, the people's friend. Yeah, so that's that, my five. I've got another one in with the people's friend at the moment which is an apothecary, a female apothecary in West York during the 1790s who was struggling to keep going because her husband's Seld the shop and disappeared after London with all the money and there's a new doctor. In terms taken, all the business. It's, yeah, when I enjoyed writing so.
Speaker 1:I don't know, as woman, why are you doing that for a woman? Sorry, then, what are you doing to that poor woman?
Speaker 2:Oh, this is it. You need strong. You need strong women who will become adversity. Yeah, yeah, then for them to fall.
Speaker 1:Enough with yes, Absolutely Well. They all sound great. My final question where can my listeners find out more about you and your books?
Speaker 2:Okay, and I have a blog on Sue cook. Sue cook writes dot wordpresscom and it's mostly about writing women's magazine stories. I don't sell my books on there or particularly advertise them on there, but that's where you can connect with me and hopefully very soon I should be getting another website and getting a newsletter going, which I'm sure doesn't use it go, but it doesn't happen. So hopefully that will be coming soon and, failing that, it would be on Amazon. And no, there's a slight problem with Amazon on my books because Sue cook, unfortunately, is not only a very common name. There is another sue cook who's slightly more famous, right. So if you look up sue cook author on Amazon, you'll get pages and pages of books by sue cook.
Speaker 2:That isn't you yeah, so, and you're probably best looking for one of my books, specifically with sue cook and I'd say either murder at the Abbey or murder at the bakery, because they're fairly easy to remember. Okay, I should pop up. Yeah, I should have chosen a different name Wendy. It's a bit late now.
Speaker 1:I should have done tens of reasons. I've got a nature in the middle of my name because Wendy Jones is a very common name. You know it's a bit like sue cook. So, I slapped H in the middle, which happens to be my middle initial anyway, so it worked out. Yeah well, thank you very much for joining me. It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I've really enjoyed it and thanks for asking you are welcome anytime.
Speaker 1:Enjoy the rest of your day.
Speaker 2:And you.
Speaker 1:That brings us to the end of another show. It was really good to have you on the show with me today. I'm Wendy H Jones and you can find me at WendyHjonescom. You can also find me on Patreon, where you can support me for as little as three dollars a month, which is less than the price of a tear coffee. You go to wwwWendyHjonescom. Forward slash, wendyhjones. I'm also WendyHjones on Facebook, twitter, instagram and Pinterest. Thank you for joining me today and I hope you found it both useful and interesting. Join me next week when I will have another cracking guest for you. Until then, have a good week and Keep writing, keep reading and keep learning.